Poured Over: Katy Hessel on The Story of Art Without Men

By Jenna Seery / May 20, 2023 at 6:00 am

“In 1649, Artemisia Gentileschi wrote, ‘I’ll show you what a woman can do.’”

In The Story of Art Without Men Katy Hessel recounts the legacy of the women that have shaped the history of art — largely without recognition. Hessel joins us to talk about how she started this massive project, what surprised her while writing, some of the women that inspire her and more with guest host Allie Ludlow. We end this episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Madyson and Jamie.     

This episode of Poured Over was produced and hosted by Allie Ludlow and mixed by Harry Liang. Poured Over is brought to you by Executive Producer Miwa Messer and the booksellers of Barnes & Noble.     

New episodes land Tuesdays and Thursdays (with occasional Saturdays) here and on your favorite podcast app.     

Featured Books (Episode):
The Story of Art Without Men by Katy Hessel
The Story of Art by E.H. Gombrich

Featured Books (TBR Topoff):
How To Suppress Women’s Writing by Joanna Russ
Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists? By Linda Nochlin

Full Episode Transcript

Allie Ludlow
I’m Allie Ludlow. I’m a bookseller and Category Manager at Barnes and Noble and my subjects are art, design and photography. I previously was at MoMA and Guggenheim before that for a long time, I’ve spent a decade and museums so I’m very happy to be at Barnes and Noble. But that’s just a little bit of background on me. I truly appreciated your book The Story of Art Without Men. And this is a critical subject we’ve heard inklings of for the past several years, more and more women artists are finally being recognized for their contributions that shifted the trajectory of art but never before has woman’s art history been spelled out in this way. It is inquisitive, inspiring, factual, infuriating, and one of the most important texts I have read pertaining to art history. This was resounded with me partially because I’m a woman, artist and art lover, and that it turns art history on its head, this sheds new light and quite literally breaks what we thought we knew. We learned that our understanding of art history is very one sided, and our education is primarily from the male perspective. This book liberates us of that.

Katy Hessel
Thank you so much that honestly means the world.

AL
It actually it made me really quite emotional reading this as well cried multiple times. So the story of art without men, which is an amazing title, by the way, is a counterpart to Gombrich’s, The Story of Art, which in its latest in 16th, edition, only included one woman artist, the amount of time energy and research spent on this is extraordinary. It is a true labor of love, as you uncover so many women who have been lost to history. How did you even do this? And what were your first steps?

KH
Well, I mean, first of all, Allie, thank you so much, honestly, just your words mean the world to me, and just the fact you’ve read it, and just everything, it just, you know, what’s amazing, I think about this book is it is a total sort of collaboration, celebration of all these women, when I open this book, it’s kind of like a party, because there are so many incredible people who just, you know, defied every odds to get to where they are, and, and just, you know, to be professional women artists, whether it’s in 2023, or in 1693, it’s the same fight. And I just completely respect every single one of those women. I mean, it all started eight years ago, really, I mean, this has been a kind of my whole adult life’s work. And it couldn’t have been better, or what interesting or fun, I feel so lucky that I can do this as a job. It began when I was 21 years old. And I walked into an art fair, and I had just finished my art history degree. And I’ve always been obsessed with art and art history and galleries and museums. And I went into this art fair, and I realized that of all the artworks in front of me, not a single one was by a woman artist. And I suddenly had this realization that I’d never addressed the gender imbalance in art history. And I was sort of shocked at my own ignorance or naivety. But the thing is, it’s the kind of thing where if you go into galleries and museums, you know, this is where we learn is cultural centers of the world. I just literally couldn’t sleep one night and type the word typed the words, woman artists into Instagram, and nothing appeared. And so I just thought, Okay, I need to educate myself, you know, if I’m gonna go to university courses and galleries, and I’m not gonna see them there, then I’ve just got to do the work myself. That was October 2015. And then it grew into a podcast of now over 100 episodes deep, where I just basically get to interview my heroes and ask them questions that I’ve been interested in. And we’ve interviewed artists of all over the world or authors or I love my favorite is when I interview family members of the artist, it’s like, I want to sort of try to access those people. Like you say, it’s a sort of counterpoint to Gombrich, really, because I grew up reading Gombrich’s The Story of Art, I loved it. And it wasn’t until I was, you know, about 25, that I realized that he didn’t include a single woman artist in his first 15 editions. And then he just the 16th edition includes just one which is, Kathe Kollwitz, its amazing. And so pretty kind of began from that. And this book is a kind of labor of love. I mean, I’m completely obsessed with every single artist in it. And, and the thing is, I always say to people, it’s totally not definitive art history, because there are so many amazing artists in the world from all different backgrounds and all different times. This is just kind of what the information I’ve accumulated in my short life. It’s just who I’ve, I’ve had a look at really,

That’s just phenomenal, but like, you dive into so many eras and movements from centuries ago, and if those artists weren’t presented to us by museums or through education, how did you even find them?

I mean, that’s the amazing thing about the internet, really, and books and museums and the things they think that unit, for example, the National Gallery in London, just 1% of the National Gallery’s collection is made up of women. It’s shocking. And I just researched and only nine of those works are on view, it’s like, where are we going to go. But the thing is, you know, it’s not like women artists have never existed, women artists have existed for centuries. And also, it’s the fact that actually, it’s more about the narrative. It’s about who has been able to dictate these stories, who has been able to be the director of museums, or curators of museums, that people who’ve got to write these books, there’s no coincidence that they all seem to be from one category. So what’s amazing about the internet is that it can launch, you know, my career began on the internet. I’m a kid who was born in the 90s and that’s kind of my route. And so I just spend all day, every day researching, what the amazing thing about the internet is, is that you can, you can find people the whole time. And then you can go to your library, you can go to your teams, and you can track these artists down, and you can see their work in the flesh. It’s about being conscious about this, you know, question being like, where are the women? Can I name 10 women artists off the top of my head? Can I name any artists who are women who are working pre-1900. And so what I hope this book addresses as well as like, people go to the Met, and they say, okay, you know, I can see Monet, Van Gogh, Manet, Gauguin. But what about Berthe Morisot? What about Mary Cassatt? What about Suzanne Valadon? What about you know, all these people? And so it’s about actually just checking yourself like I did it years ago? And actually, can I name this amount of women off the top of my head

What or who was your most surprising find?

They all were so incredible. I mean, you know, one of my favorites, I mean, what I really want to do with the book is like, not even just break down the canon in terms of gender and balance, I don’t just want to remove the sort of stigma and elitism with our history, because art is often seen as really inaccessible thing. But I also want to champion artists who are from all different backgrounds. You know, they might be untrained, they might be neuro diverse. They might be tapestry makers, they might be painters, they might be academically trained, but it’s about saying, Okay, everyone was part of the story. And I think one of my favorite, maybe the most surprising person was this extraordinary artists called Charlotte Salomon, who was working in the 1940s. And she was a German Jewish artist. And she made this extraordinary work called Life or Theater, between the years 1941 to 1943, when she was on the run from the Nazis, when she was staying in her grandparents’ house in the south of France. And his work was called Life or Theater. She is not a trained artist, in terms of the sort of academic sense, she just, you know, sometimes we have these burning desires to make things or write things because they’re just necessary. And that’s what she did. She made this work called Life or Theater, which is essentially a kind of autobiographical, sort of graphic novel style book, it’s made up of about over 700 gouaches, which is kind of like these watercolors. And they’re kind of just smaller than a4 and what’s amazing is people have now made them into a book, so you can have a look at them quite easily. And it’s sort of autobiography of her life. Well, it’s sort of based on opera. So it’s sort of divided three different parts. And it’s called Life or Theater, because it’s about her growing up in Berlin as a young Jewish girl, and coming to terms with the rise of fascism, the rise of Nazism, and, you know, suddenly being excluded from lessons in her classroom. But it’s also about dealing with that, but not only that, it’s about dealing with mental health, it’s about dealing with love when you’re younger, it’s about dealing with, you know, discovering beautiful places in the countryside. And so it’s this utter sort of joy of a book, but also, but it’s this kind of, it’s difficult to describe it, because it’s so visceral. It’s basically this woman who was just that this desire to make something. And she called it life or theater because she couldn’t comprehend what was life and what was theater because the world that she was growing up in was so incomprehensible. And she very sadly died when she was age 26, five months pregnant, when she was ordered to Auschwitz. And you know, the fact that we have a record of this woman from this time is just extraordinary. And where do we see her? You know, I saw it in a small exhibition at the Jewish Museum in London a few years ago. But it’s like, this is the kind of work that needs to be in the history books, because it’s extraordinary. This is a woman who sort of did everything, the fact that this work is still contained, still exists, you know, amazing, sort of visceral, immediate reaction to the time.

And also the fact that she was able to create so much work while on the run. Like it was 700 gouaches. I remember that in reading the book, and that artist like specifically spoke to me as well, the fact that she was 26 when she was caught and sentenced to death, and it’s just absolutely wonderful life. Life or Theater is shocking, and I wish it was something that I had been shown by teachers, professors, and museums.

So she was a similar age to me, as I was writing this book and there’s things just, I think that’s the thing about the stories like as a woman, I just connect to so many of them. It’s like Artemisia Gentileschi, one of the greatest artists ever to live, she was born in 1593. The Baroque movement was sort of on the cusp of the 17th century. And it was kind of known for it sort of studying light effects on visceral seems psychological intensity, and the subject matters. That was actually propaganda. It was very much split by the Catholic Church, based in Rome, but it was kind of almost propaganda to sort of get people back into the church, because obviously, the Reformation was happening in sort of northern Europe. And so sort of present all these artists presents all these incredibly dramatic, visceral, biblical scenes and Artemisia Gentileschi, she was born in 1593, in Rome, and she had the access of being an artist because her father was an artist. And that’s so common for artists, especially kind of pre-1900, because you always had to have a sort of powerful man looking after you could either be from the nunnery or you could have a husband who was, you know, gave you access to this. And bear in mind that women didn’t have access to this until the 1890s. And what Artemisia Gentileschi did, she made these extraordinary paintings, these kinds of biblical scenes, retold these scenes, and the first work she ever signed and dated was when she was 17. Susanna and the Elders, which is extraordinary, we’ve got a picture of it in the book. And it’s a towering work, I’ve seen it in the flesh. Huge. And what it does it you know, the story of Susanna and the elders basically follows this young virgin, a woman Susanna who’s in her garden went to lecherous men try seducer, and it’s a very common story because it allows for the semi naked Susanna and so often the time when we see Susanna is by Rubens or even Caravaggio, or whoever, you know, it’s often sort of sexualized in a way. And what she did is she gave voice to Susanna, you know, when we have a look at this scene, she’s actually really showing Susanna. It’s seen exactly, exactly. shins from a female perspective. Exactly. And it’s like, you know, obviously, I’m not 17 anymore, but I can, it’s sort of, you know, when I go into museums, I find it difficult to relate to these people, because they’re not telling my story. And the fact that Artemisia Gentileschi was extraordinary, she was international celebrity and her day, you know, people would commission portraits of her hand because she was so revered. And it’s the fact that she’s been written out about history. When I look at these stories, I connect with these women so much, because they just did everything possible to sort of fight their way into the canon.

They don’t and especially with Artemisia Gentileschi, she one of my favorite artists, I read the Passion of Artemisiawhen I was in high school, and it just completely blew my mind. And for our viewers, a little bit of history on Artemisia, as well as that she was raped by her father’s assistant or apprentice, and took it to court in the 16th century, and was tortured for it to basically tell the truth, if she was raped or not, which is just absolutely wild.

Yeah, and what’s amazing is the fact that the document of the trial still exists. Still, we can still hear these courageous words. And yes, she was tortured during the seven-month trial, like could you imagine being 18 years old? And all this? Yeah, it was seven months and what happened was, they tortured with this. They tortured her with this sort of instrument, which is ropes tied around your fingers and tightened basically dislocating as an artist your biggest tools are your hands.

I mean, you just really do.

I mean, you know, she lost her mother when she was so young. She was asked to raise her younger brothers and also run her father’s studio, but she just she fought back. And the work she made are heroic, these works of heroic Judiths, Susannas, Lucretias, Medusas like my favorite one of her works in the book, which is Judith beheading Holofernes and what’s extraordinary about it is in the in the real story, it’s her maid servants keeping watch outside and Judith’s sort of butchering Holofernes’ head, like a piece of meat. But what Artemisia does is she kind of almost kind of show the power of sisterhood and show the power of collaboration where women get together, Judith and her maid servants, work together to sort of butcher this man’s head, like a piece of meat, but also it’s kind of hilarious as well, because it’s so dramatic and visceral.

It’s so dramatic. It’s so visceral and one of the most grotesque paintings I’ve ever seen. It’s absolutely astounding what she was able to create at such a young age. Well, women artists created astonishing works considering their suppression and society’s rules that dictated what they could or could not do. They were unable to attend life classes were one studies nudes until the end of the 19th century. These restrictions made it impossible for them to contribute to the styles or subjects that were the trends of those eras literally making their art unimportant and many of them are subjected to creating works deemed by art history as low art such as textile, quiltmaking, still life, etc. Do you feel that the art world and art education has done its part to right those wrongs and give space to what was once considered low art?

It’s a great question. I think that, you know, I think we’re living in such an exciting time right now, because, you know, I don’t know about New York, but in London, we’ve recently had exhibitions, you know, dedicated to textile artists, ceramicists, potters, weavers, all these things. I mean, you know, for example, the Anni Albers exhibition at Tate Modern was one of the most popular exhibitions because people were astonished at this woman who was using these textiles. And Anni Albers started to start her career at the Bauhaus. When was, you know, the Bauhaus is sort of meant to be this sort of utopian idea of education or equal, but it obviously wasn’t, the women were kind of shunned away to the weaving workshop, but then what they did, they actually kind of monopolized these genres and these art forms. So they, you know, in a way, the greatest highly considered weavers and tapestry makers from history are women, because that’s what they were sort of subjected to do. But I think what was extraordinary is the fact that, you know, women were, you know, they had to sort of deal with these certain lower considered artworks, or genres. But what they did, they kind of switch them up. So for example, you mentioned, you know, women artists didn’t have access to the Life until the 1890s. And they were very much restricted to portraiture or still life, because they were easily accessible. Because you paint yourself, you could paint your sister, you could paint your teacher, you could paint the sort of still life scene in front of you. But what they did, they kind of totally switched these up. So for example, Sofonisba Anguissola, this extraordinary artist working on the 1550s. And I mentioned this work in the book, we’ve got the chess game, but also her self-portrait with Bernardino Campi, who was her teacher. And what he’s doing here is she’s, it might at first seem like a painting of her teacher painting her, but then you realize that it’s actually her dictating the whole scene. So it’s sort of Anguissola dictating her teacher, dictating her appearance. And she not only is she 1.5 times as big as him, not only is she getting him to sort of paint, the embellishments, the jacket, which is a task normally assigned to an apprentice. But if you look very closely, you see that she’s actually got her hand matching his as if she is guiding his hand around the canvas. I mean, you just think this is the 1550s. And she’s switching up gender conventions. I mean, it’s just totally extraordinary. And similarly with The Chess Game, she’s showing her sisters participating in a conversational game with chess. And it’s not only is she showing women’s intellect, but if we look at the background of his work, it’s a landscape. And so what they’re doing, they’re into weaving other genres sort of almost proving their worth. And one of my favorite works in the book is by Clara Peters, who was this extraordinary Flemish still life painter. I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but what I what I do in the book, which I’ve done, which was which was fantastic, as sometimes I include crops of the artwork to kind of people just to say, just take another look at this. So what might at first seem like a sort of, you know, all flowers and sort of goblets and chains, and whatever all laid out, if you look closer at this goblet, look closer, there are more than 10 self-portraits, I mean, like you, but reflected. So it’s like these women are like, you know, also the amount of Miss attribution in art history as well. The fact that so many works by Judith Leyester. were actually, you know, misattributed to Frans Hals, the same with the amazing work by Marie-Denise Villers at the Metropolitan Museum because they thought it was by David. And so it’s the fact that actually, how do you sort of make your mark on the world, make your mark on the world and, you know, make sure that your work doesn’t get misinterpreted, was to make self portraits.

And immortalizing themselves?

Right, exactly. Just the just the act of defiance a self portrait can also do for you. The fact that you’re saying, this is me, this is my mark and the amount of women artists also who immortalized themselves, you know, at the easel, and it’s the fact that actually what they did was, they said, this is who I am, you know, I am an artist. This is how I want to be remembered. This is my legacy because women artists did exist.

They did. And there are a couple of works I’d like to call out that you talk about in your book. The Kiss by Gustav Klimt. A masterpiece in the eyes of so many revered for its design subject and beauty. A woman artist created a work that is strikingly similar to Klimt’s kiss five years prior, and yet I’ve never heard of Margaret Mackintosh. We know that he would have seen this piece since it adorned the piano of one of his most prominent collectors. Would you mind talking about that a little bit here?

Yes, I’m so pleased. No one really asked me about this. This is great. So yeah, so Margaret Macdonald Macintosh was extraordinary. She was a Scottish artist who with her sister, they’re part of the Glasgow group and the Glasgow style, which is a bit sort of like art nouveau or something. It’s this kind of whiplash line, sort of curvilinear. Very sort of, yeah, sort of early, late 19th century, early 20th century. And she was part of a group called the four. And it was Francis and Margaret, who were sisters and their husbands Francis’ was Herbert, and Margaret’s husband was a very famous architect called Charles Rennie Mackintosh, who designed the Glasgow School of Art. And if you’re from Scotland, you, he’s sort of the most revered architect they exhibited in Vienna in 1900. And as a result, they received lots of commissions by Viennese collectors and patrons. And she made these extraordinary panels for a collector’s home to go on to adorn his piano. And they were called the opera of the wind and the opera of the sea. And, like I said, it is kind of whiplash lines, these curvilinear forms, these are very elegant, sort of tall women. And there is the most extraordinary work, which I include in the book on this work, you know, shows these, this couple sort of intertwined, these faces join in, like a kiss or something. And it is completely strikingly similar, strikingly similar composition, to Klimt’s the kiss. And, you know, there’s nothing, I know that there is nothing wrong with borrowing motifs, you know, still at the whole time, but it’s the fact that she is never credited where he is. And it’s, you know, it really brings up that question of how we contextualize women artists as well. And actually, why have their influences been left out of major artworks in art history as well. And so I wanted to address the fact that, you know, so many of us know what The Kiss looks like, I can look at it in my head, I know. Well, and that’s the fact that actually, maybe, this woman did influence him which, and she needs to be credited that history. You know, it’s similarly with the, you know, the Beatles cover, it’s like Sergeant Pepper’s the album cover. It wasn’t just done by Peter Blake; it was done by Jann Haworth as well. And it’s like, you know, all these last stories in history, we need to make sure that people are sort of rightly credited. But also, that’s also not to say that we should also define them by their male counterparts at all, because that’s also what I wanted to do with the book is actually, you know, the reason why I wrote it in social and physical history is because I was so fed up of everyone saying, oh, you know, Lee Krasner was Jackson Pollock’s wife. It’s like, no, no, you know, it might be sort of irrelevant for certain contexts. But I was so fed up of women being seen as the wife of the muse or the daughter or the sister of actually, by rooting them within their sort of social and political context, we really get a sense of who they were and how much they fought to succeed as artists.

And another one I would love to call out is Duchamp’s fountain, which is known as one of the most important works of modern art spearheading the readymade and data. In your book, we learned that this piece was submitted to the society of independent artists by a woman who is contemporary, and I might be butchering her name, Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven. And that Duchamp even wrote to his sister that a female friend sent the work and not him. This news came into discussion only a few years ago. How is it possible that this was overlooked by historians and Freytag-Loringhoven, has not been fully recognized in the preservation of art history.

You know, but so she’s known as the Baroness because she married a cash stricken Baron and she’s called the Baroness Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven. And she arrived in New York City in the early 1910s. And not only did she influence Duchamp to actually submit a fountain and like you say, you call up the letter that he writes to his sister, Suzanne, where he says, you know, a female friend actually, you know, inspired me to do this. But she was this extraordinary artist who sort of used to walk the streets of New York City, you know, with sort of cans as a kind of top, tied with string as a top, shoes have stamps on her cheeks. She used to have sort of carrots and vegetables in her hair. She was essentially a living performance artist. And what she did is she used to perform at the salons where Man Ray and Duchamp, but all attended. And she had made these poems called readymade poems where she’d kind of adopt slogans from advertising. So not only did she inspire Duchamp’s the readymade, in terms of also through this idea of poetry as well. But when we think about Marina Abramovic, Yoko Ono, all these people, she was a precursor to them. She was the living embodiment of a performance artist. And so she, you know, it’s the fact that these women they did so much and they were just hardly remembered in our history. And it’s the fact that the readymade, you know, when we go to MOMA and we see it, or we see all different works, it’s so important to recognize that these women were there too. And I think that’s, that’s where we’ve gotten to sort of, I don’t know what’s happened in our history, because it’s almost as though people have consciously written these women out.

It’s erasure in a way.

It’s totally erasure and it’s the fact that actually, we need to recognize the fact that these women were so influential. And they too need to be credited and recognized. And like I say in the book, you know, the Baroness, she died in complete poverty and she was completely unknown. She had no success in her life. How did history get away with sort of celebrating the history of patriarchy, rather than celebrating the history of art?

Exactly. And in the chapter on modern art, you say that modern art is modern, because of its inclusion of women. This shattered me because I had never thought of it in that way before. And I don’t believe that any of my professors or in my education, I’ve heard that specifically said.

When I was writing that I was like, what is modern art? You know? And also, what does modernism even mean? You know, eradication of hierarchies, in terms of art forms, lines shattered on a canvas, all these different things. And actually, it’s about the participation of women. It’s about, you know, a 1900s. In the early 20th century, women artists got more freedoms than ever, like you said, they had access to the life room, they could go unchaperoned, they could actually paint what they wanted, because they were not now under the guard of men. You know, it’s the fact that like Paula Modersohn-Becker, an extraordinary German artist who traveled to Paris, on a 17-hour train journey, because she wants to see the splendors of the French modernists. And she was adopted these traits and she made self-portraits, she made images of the mother and child that had never ever been made before. And it’s the fact that this is the first time in history where women are telling their stories on their terms. It’s like one of my favorite artists in that chapter is Susan Valadon, who was this extraordinary French artist, again, she had no formal training, she started out because she was born illegitimately. And she, you know, in sort of late 19th century that was, you know, not seen as something that was particularly good. And what she did is she wanted to be a trapeze artist. But how trapeze dreams, were her acrobatic dreams were cut short when she fell from a trapeze at age 15. And she had very striking looks and so what she did, she became an artist’s model. And she sat for the likes of Renoir, Degas, Toulouse Lautrec, etc. And she always wants to be an artist, and sort of going to an art school formally, although she didn’t have much money. What she did is she learned almost the kind of backdoor way by looking at those who were painting her. And so you know, Degas would like teach her drawing, which was such a wonderful story at age 46, she had her first ever solo exhibition. And she actually became extremely successful in her lifetime, but how many people have heard of her actually, the Barnes Foundation in Philadelphia did an extraordinary exhibition of her last year. But that was one of the first ever This was around 100 years ago. And the wealth by her that I include in the book is a work called the Blue Room. And if you look at this work, it’s sort of a woman, it’s a self-portrait, it very much sort of evokes the Venus like pose. So, it’s this reclining woman, but she’s fully clothed. Unlike Venus, who is often seen as naked and nude and sexualized, and she’s smoking, she’s got a cigarette hanging out of her mouth. She’s wearing trousers, she has pushed these books to the back of her bed, and she’s just saying, I’m doing whatever I want, whenever I wish. And I think that is amazing, because it’s actually just saying, I’ve got independence. It’s like, with Gwen John in that chapter, as well, extraordinary well as extraordinary Welsh artists who studied at Slade in London, and then who went to Paris, you know, there’s this work that I put in a self-portrait chapter, and it’s actually a portrait of her room. It’s a portrait of her tiny attic.

Yes, with the chair in the corner and her belongings on it and they belong to her.

Exactly, exactly. And that is that is modernism. It’s saying, these are my belongings, I’m a woman, I can make my own money, I can live alone, and I can be an artist I can make, I can fund my professional career. And if it wasn’t for these women, we would not be having the jobs that we have. They also painted their story and history as well. You know, even as a woman today, it takes a lot to own your own belongings, and own your own place and all these things, but we can do it and so they inspire me.

And I know that this book was a feat in itself. But I feel like it’s crucial to continue this work. Are you going to create updated editions in the future?

I’d love to, I’d absolutely love to. I mean, what’s amazing about this project is that I still, it’s on my Instagram, The Great Women Artists, I posted about Cecily Brown yesterday, because I saw that I posted that Helen Franklin the day before because I went to her show. And I still have the podcast, you know, so it’s like, it’s I would love to create future editions, absolutely. And I think what I’ve always tried to do and I always try to say to people is that, you know, nothing ever happens overnight. Also, I’m standing on the shoulders of countless art historians who I’m lucky enough to interview for my podcast and speak to and have discussions with, you know, in the book, the acknowledgments is about 50 pages because I spoke to many amazing scholars who have dedicated their life to it, you know that the extraordinary art historian Diane Radike who you know got MOMA to buy their first ever Paula Modersohn-Becker. The incredible Sue Tate who literally from Bristol, who single handedly on Earth, the story of the pop artist, Pauline Bote. And so you know, what’s amazing is I can have them on my podcast, and I can, you know, we can talk about their journey as well. And I think I, what I always say to people is that, yeah, nothing ever happens overnight, always use the resource that you have around you. And everyone always says, you know, how can we be better? How can we take this forward, just by those who are listening to this podcast right now, that’s a step forward, you might then talk to a friend about it, you might walk into a museum and think, actually, where are the women artists, and you know, I didn’t have anything at age 21. So I started an Instagram, I curate exhibitions. My first ever exhibition was in the foyer of an advertising agency. You know, nothing happens overnight. And now I have a book, but that that takes years and, and so it’s the kind of thing that we’ve it’s like a podcast, I can do it from my bedroom, so I made a podcast. So it’s all about sort of using all the resources that you can in your capacity. And it’s the kind of thing where I would love to update it. But whilst I wait for someone to ask me to do that, I can spotlight these artists on my Instagram or my podcast. I mean, you know, this book came out in England, about 10 months ago. And already it sort of, for me, I’m like, Oh, my goodness, there are so many other artists who I’ve learned about since.

It was the Waterstones Book of the Year, congratulations on that.

Thank you. Thank you. It was, it was totally amazing. I think also, because what was incredible about that was the fact that the subject was being recognized. I think that’s, you know, whatever, this is a book by me like, that’s kind of irrelevant, because it’s about the fact that these stories have been so overlooked for so long. And, you know, the fact that art books as well, it’s often sort of, I don’t know about America, but in England, they’re often sort of on the fifth floor of the bookshop or something. And the fact that Waterstones gave it this spotlight and said, actually, these stories matter, it was emotional.

And I was just wondering as well, was there a specific era or movement that you found particularly difficult to navigate?

You know what, I mean, we’ve spoken about it already, but it was it really was Paris at the start of the 20th century, it was just this total explosion. It’s like how to put into words, what happened in Paris in the early 20th century? Because there was just so much happening. And actually, as a result, I sort of deliberated over this chapter for months, I just, I couldn’t do it, when there’s so much going on, how do you kind of break it up? And in a way, you know, this, you have, at the end of the day, you have to write a book, you have to write a linear story. And so what I the way that I sort of twisted that was I actually, you know, most of the book is rooted in social political history. But actually, at the start of modernism, I actually just wrote a chapter on self-portraits, because I just didn’t really know how to explain it otherwise, because it there’s just, it’s just this explosion of art making and creativity and there’s just so much going on all at once.

Are you going to be sending a copy to George Baselitz?

I have to say, I don’t know, I was feeling particularly I replied, writing that chapter in my kitchen and sort of like typing like this. I was like, you know what, this is insane. So for context, one of my favorite chapters on the 1980s because it was just this, I mean, it’s like the era of Cindy Sherman. Nan Golden Carrie Mae Weems, Francesca Woodman, Jenny Holzer, Barbara Kruger, it’s like, I mean, Lorraine O’Grady, it’s just extraordinary. I was feeling particularly punchy that day. And I was very much inspired by my podcast episode with Guerrilla Girls. And, you know, the reason why the Guerrilla Girls formed in 1985 is because, you know, the, the 1970s was this explosion of feminism, that actually, even though there was so much work that was done, were museums actually really taking notes, and hadn’t had anything actually changed, I mean, obviously, so much had. But what the Guerrilla Girls do that they call these public institutions out by these amazing kind of punchy slogans saying, you know, do women always have to be naked to come to the Met Museum, because there are more nudes of women than there are works by women artists, the advantages of being the disadvantages of big a woman artists, the fact that you have hardly any shows and you have recognition right at the end of your life, etc, etc.

The solo exhibitions and calling out each museum for how many solo exhibitions they had on women artists.

Exactly. If the museums were not going to, you know, spotlight these artists and give them shows that these then artists took to the streets and said, fine, we’ll make our own place. And what they did, the Guerrilla Girls got up during the night, they wore gorilla masks, and they pasted these posters all over New York City. And it grabbed the attention of the public. But yes, I was very much inspired by them. And I read this quote by George Baselitz from 2013, only 10 years ago, like a few years ago, and he said, women don’t paint very well. It’s a fact. And so I said, okay, well, he’s, you know, still alive? should we send him a copy of his book? Because we can prove that they absolutely can.

I think you should. I mean, this, this is life changing. It really is. And just thank you, thank you for spending time and energy and love on this, because I just really hope that teachers, art lovers, anyone takes a look at this because it is so incredibly, deeply important. Thank you for joining us on this podcast and talking about your book, Barnes and Noble has our exclusive of the story of art without man with Katy Hessel, they’re all signed, and they have a postcard by Rachel Reusch. This beautiful still life of flowers. And so please come and grab a copy. And one more thing before we end that I love that you started this book from a quote from one of from Artemisia Gentileschi. It’s just the perfect opening to this book. And I would love to end the podcast on it, if you don’t mind.

In 1649 Artemisia Gentileschi wrote, I’ll show you what a woman can do. And that is, it’s the first thing you see in the book. And it just is, you know, women artists have been around for centuries. I mean, you know, this book is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of work that by women. And you know what I really hope with this book, I never say it’s a definitive art history, because there are so many to be written. And I hope that it inspires other people to write their version of the story of art without men. And it’s a party, it’s a celebration, it took a lot of time and energy and love. But really, there’s nothing I’d rather do more than sit down and research these people. And the fact that I can share it to the world, and people that you could read it, it’s basically just what’s inside my head. And now I can just have amazing conversations with everyone about it.

Well, Katy, thank you so so much. So much. It’s been an absolute pleasure to talk with you and just so excited for us to get this.

Thank you so much.