Poured Over: Mary Beth Keane on The Half Moon

By Jenna Seery / May 13, 2023 at 6:00 am

“I think everyone should have secrets.”

Mary Beth Keane’s new novel, The Half Moon, follows a small-town couple navigating the uncertainties of marriage and starting a family. Keane joins us to talk about how she creates her characters, why she chose to tackle tough themes, writing during the pandemic and more with guest host, Allyson Gavaletz. We end this episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Marc and Madyson.  

This episode of Poured Over was produced and hosted by Allyson Gavaletz and mixed by Harry Liang. Poured Over is brought to you by Executive Producer Miwa Messer and the booksellers of Barnes & Noble.    

New episodes land Tuesdays and Thursdays (with occasional Saturdays) here and on your favorite podcast app.    

Featured Books (Episode):
The Half Moon by Mary Beth Keane
Hamnet by Maggie O’Farrell
Opened Ground by Seamus Heaney

Featured Books (TBR Topoff):
Trespasses by Louise Kennedy
Booked on a Feeling by Jayci Lee

Full Episode Transcript

Allyson Gavaletz
Hi, everyone. I’m Allyson Gavaletz, a bookseller with Barnes and Noble. And today we are talking to Mary Beth Keane, the author of The Half Moon, which comes out today. It’s out now, Mary Beth, thank you so much for being here.

Mary Beth Keane
Thank you for having me.

AG
I really loved your book, I’m excited to talk to you about it. I have to tell you, also there’s like a personal connection that you don’t know about with me. But all throughout the pandemic, your book Ask Again, Yes, was one of my laptop holders. When I was working at home and I’d read it and I loved it. But every day I just kept looking at your book and it was just like one of my friends during the pandemic. So it’s very funny to be here. It served a practical purpose. It most certainly did. So I’m so excited to talk to you about this book. There’s so many layers to it, such wonderful characters, so much happens in it. And it’s really a perfect storm of events, no pun intended, but also just a bit like normal life. When you’re reading it, it doesn’t feel too dramatic or unbelievable. It’s just kind of how life goes. Can you tell us a bit about the book?

MBK
I mean, I think you’ve summed it up pretty well. Strangely, this is such a hard, hard question to answer. But basically, it’s about a marriage and it’s about a community. After Ask Again, Yes, I think I was really craving a book that was more contained, I guess, the main character in Ask Again, Yes, Peter, he really had no friends, really. And he was so internal and so reserved within himself. I sort of craved a character like Malcolm, who is one of the two main characters of The Half Moon, who is so affable and gregarious, and, you know, sort of the opposite of Peter. And this was sort of a first for me, usually, one book doesn’t really inform another, you know, it’s like a clean slate. But this kind of, I felt I wasn’t quite done with that world. And yet, I wanted to see different people in it, Jess was the voice I heard first, and I guess there could be an argument over who the book really belongs to. But I heard her voice first I wrote some in the first person sort of, almost like an epistolary type structure. At first, it wasn’t quite working. I wrote it a lot of different ways. But essentially, it’s about a marriage and to what degree we can really know the person that we’ve chosen to like sign on with for life. You know, what, what portion of marriage is performative, for the community, for your friends and family, sometimes even for your partner or for yourself. And I don’t know, like how it’s done. I’ve been married, it’ll be 20 years in August. This is not a book, I should say, in case my husband watches this. This is not a book about my marriage. But I think it came also from listening to gossip. You know, I live in a community a lot like Gillem and it’s fascinating what people imagine they know about other people’s lives based I think in part of that, based on that, you know, performative aspect I reference and I just assume that we’re always wrong, and that we never really know and so that’s sort of where the book came from.

That’s cool. Your characters are so real, you wonderfully create fully formed, flawed likeable and dislikeable people who I feel like I know, by the time I’m finished with your book, I felt that when I read Ask Again, Yes. And I felt it when I read this book, how do you create these people?

MBK

I don’t know how to write any other way. I mean, I think every one of my characters might be a version of me. But once I start writing a character, if they feel really full, you know, eventually, they just start feeling really real. And I think I’m always interested in characters who are not terribly articulate about how they feel, you know, everyone feels the same things as each other, no matter how articulate or not you are, if you have like, the vocabulary of therapy, and you’re very fluent and talking about how you feel, and that’s one thing, I don’t think there’s anyone who doesn’t have those feelings. And so I’m interested in those people who have them, but can’t talk about it. And I wonder sometimes, if maybe creating that, sort of putting flesh on them in other ways, is like a way for me to indicate to the reader what feelings the characters are having without putting words in their mouths, but I don’t know, I don’t know how to write any other way. I’m interested in just regular folk, I guess.

And it’s great. And I do remember, at one point, there’s this inner thought of Malcolm and I remember being like just say it, just tell her but you’re right. It is hard to say those things sometimes, especially to the people you’re in a relationship with. Early in the book, Malcolm finds out news about Jess and he thinks to himself in a tiny way, it was a relief. There is sometimes a relief to finding out bad news because it’s what our brains have thought about for a long time. And now it’s finally true. And there can be a validation in that. I think it gave him an entry point to begin his grief process. He was kind of stuck in a hope limbo before that.

MBK

It was so, for me, in line with Malcolm’s personality, but it was also sort of a she’s making a decision and that decision hasn’t quite been made yet. But in the meantime, there’s information he needs to have. I think that he is such an optimist, and his mind has just been like worrying and worrying and worrying. And I think we do To talk ourselves out of very obvious things, sometimes it’s astonishing what we’re able to tell ourselves and what we’re able to believe. And so, but I’m such a box checker in my real life that I think knowing for me is always better than not knowing I think it’s probably true for everyone. And so yeah, the book goes from there. And it was a kindness on his friend’s part, to sort of let him know, I think a big part of the book is about their network of friends, and the people supporting them and who they have, you know, at home.

Yeah. And he has a big network. I mean, he’s lived there in this town since he was a little kid and, and his friends are his friends from childhood. And you’re right, it is a niceness that his friends give him in having this conversation with him. And it, it was just interesting to watch him react, and then everything that unfolds after that, once he has this one tiny morsel of information.

MBK

And I think his nature, I mean, I’m also very interested in work in all of my books. I try to, like, portray people’s jobs. And I guess I’m always asking, to what degree do our jobs define us, you know, especially if they’re the sorts of jobs that you fall into, and that you don’t study eight years for and all that. But I think he is able to sort of hide from himself to a degree through work, like we all do, I guess. But Malcolm, I think errs toward the positive, you know, he’s always turning toward light, the opposite of Malcolm would be almost easier. It’s hard to kind of create sympathy for someone who is life has come sort of easily to him so far. And so I was afraid people wouldn’t be that sympathetic. But I was and I hope that that came out in some way.

Yeah, I was too. He has it easy. But he has is likable and has gone through things. It’s not just like he’s coasted without anything ever happening to him, which I think makes people more likable.

MBK

Yeah, that’s true. I’m also remembering some things that did happen to him. Yeah in his teens and stuff. Yeah.

Also, at the beginning, there’s almost an anxious tone set, we learn about Malcolm’s money woes, and you feel a sense of urgency that really comes across, how did you get that across in the right way?

MBK

Well, if it’s the right way, thank you, well, again, this comes back to this feeling like an end note, in some ways, or a sibling to Ask Again, Yes, that book was set over like 45 years, I wanted to write something more contained, like I said, and that will take place over the course of a week. And so I had to sort of begin, you know, sort of quickly. And, I mean, there’s so much going on with him in that week. And I think that the financial precarity that I don’t want to give anything away, that’s sort of throughout the book is something that’s been going on for quite some time. And so it’s always, when you live in that situation, which I’ve been in, you, you can never quite forget it. You know, every little thing is like a constant calculation in your mind. And so even despite this, this surprising news that he gets about Jess, I think it’s, it’s there. So there’s another thing to handle. So he’s just like, go, go, go, Okay, now there’s this and he’s juggling, and he’s, you know, he’s just trying to figure it all out at once. I mean, something is gonna break, but I don’t know. I mean, I just had him going throughout his day, and just try to keep my hands off it and just portray him, you know, you walk in, you count the number of people you make, and how many beers are they going to have? How long are they going to stay? When is the snow gonna come? Oh, my God. Now I know this about just but you have to sort of pull put that to the side and take in whatever money you’re gonna make that night. And in sort of put a pin in that until later, which he does. When he gets home that evening. When the snow starts, he sort of lets his mind rest for a second he smokes a cigarette and thinks about it.

Yeah, you’re right. It was those details like that was the thing was very detailed, I think that helped get across is like, Okay, how many drinks? How many people aren’t here, even when he was driving up? You know, kind of in the first page, he’s like, what scene am I about to walk into? Is it a vibrant lawn? Or is it empty?

MBK

and he could get a vibe from far away, he knew Yes, well enough that he could sort of get a vibe for it. And my dad is one of 11 siblings, and he had several brothers who both my parents were from Ireland and a bunch of my dad’s brothers came to the US worked in bars and then eventually opened their own bars. And some of the next generation my cousins have done that as well. And so it’s sort of a world I know pretty well. My dad always said he was too shy. You had to be sort of a politician to run a bar and he just wasn’t made for that. But I do remember being young and the only places we ever went out to eat were my uncle’s pubs and there would always be this vibe of, you know, a little bit of worry on my parent’s part like how many people are here. How, how does it seem, you know, a cook left last week. He was a really good one. It’s like a magical One thing you don’t know what makes one place, and some are successful, and some weren’t. And they’re really, you know, on paper weren’t that many differences between them, except you walk in. I mean, I remember being in my 20s. And walking into places in Manhattan be like, this place is cool this place isn’t. I don’t really know why. And so you’d only ever go to this one place. Meanwhile, the place next door is suffering. And like, why not throw some music on in there and make that a success, too. It’s a world I’m lucky enough to know. And so a lot of those details came from, you know, not that much research. It’s just something I knew.

Did any of your uncles or cousins remodel?

MBK

Did they remodel?

And then have people get mad at them?

MBK

Not that I know of, nothing like what happens here now. But there was a place in town here that was sort of a dump. I mean, my family was happy, they remodeled, we have no relation to them. They remodeled, got new menus, and kind of tried to upgrade the place a little bit and everyone was ticked off, you know? Haven’t we been complaining about the sticky seats, and you know, when like when those like plastic vinyl seats crack, they kind of like cut your thighs when you sit down. And then next thing when they got nice ones. Everyone’s like, oh, wow, it got so fancy.

Yeah. It’s so interesting. I mean, people, it’s funny, because that is exactly how it’s like, why doesn’t someone fix that up? It’s so rundown or it has so much charm, it could be so cute. And then someone does and people get so mad at the change that it was it’s like, I guess this just nostalgic factor that’s gone. But it has to happen.

MBK

My mom, I remember, thought that they raised their prices, she was insistent that they oh, well, that everything is more expensive. Now there and you know, there was an argument somebody produced an old menu like, no, it’s the same price.

Jess and Malcolm deal with devastating infertility in this novel, and you really lay out the struggle, many, many women go through this experience, and you do not hold back with the details or heartbreak. Why did you want to include this experience?

MBK

I was frustrated with a lot of different medical type things that friends and family, were going through that, you know, I went through to a certain extent, and I find that fertility, it reminds me of death in a way, like chronic illness, there’s no end, my dad passed away in June and even when he was in terrible, terrible shape, and we took them home, there were still doctors and nurses who suggested he’d be brought to the ER, he have this procedure, that procedure, it’s like, at what point right to say this is, it’s not going to work for you. And fertility, I’ve seen some friends go through it to such a degree, you know that it’s marriage-wrecking, almost, it’s depressing, you know, in the real sense of the word, and there’s no end. So if you keep going to a different place, there aren’t that many people who will say, you know, it’s give up, you know, I don’t think it’s the vocabulary of most doctors. And I understand that too. And I think there are a lot of people who appreciate that side of things. But it would also be a mercy, I think, to some people to say, okay, this is not going to happen, you know, but you can have a different, very, very happy life, that’s just as rich. Yeah, it seems like it’s just something I went on Facebook, you know, I wanted to get outside of my own unit and my own, you know, people and my experiences. And so, I read a lot, and especially the Facebook groups, the private groups, some of them were nice enough to let me in, I didn’t lie. I said, you know, I’m researching for a novel. Can I just sort of like lurk here and some people I got in touch with if they’d be willing to speak to me, and it was astonishing, how much time and money people put into this.

And it’s also it’s something that couples go through so alone, together, you know, like, it’s not, it’s still this taboo thing, like, we know that there are these struggles, we know that people go through them. We know they’re expensive and painful and that kind of stuff. But it’s still something that people don’t talk about outside of their marriage or their partnership, I think very well.

MBK

And friends and family often don’t know what to say, but I think being careful about it, you know, is almost not worse, I guess, of course, it’s important to be careful to not hurt other people, but it’s we’re wearing, I have two kids, and it’s so abundantly obvious, just look in my car, that I have two slobs have kids, you know, and I, everything about our home, everything about our social lives, you know, is built around that. And so it’s sort of pointless to not talk about it because it’s right there in a person’s face, you know, when they’re struggling, so you might as well say, How are you doing with this? You know, the fact that my car’s full of Cheerios, and you’re in it all the time? You know, I don’t know. It’s just something I’ve thought about a lot.

14:54

I mean, I think it’s important that like, I loved that part of your book of just the reality of it and how deep into the process it goes and how you’re right, that no one ever says, maybe it’s not going to happen for you or rarely do they say that and you’re right, it would be probably a mercy to some people to have that.

MBK

There’s also some of it that’s generational. I think Jess’ mother has a response at one point that my own mother has had, like, well, you know, were you on that birth control pill, in college? You know, and now, here, you know, here you are. And it’s so, you know, the blame is really never still on the guy. You know, your mind goes to crazy things. It’s like, you know, did I sit in hot tubs and drink gallons of Diet Coke between the years 1995 and 2003. Yes, I did. Or you start just calculating, but and yet it works out for so many people who’ve done those same things. So it’s not your fault. But, you know, the older generation and the younger generation have, like, you know, some communicating to do about that. But there were always people who didn’t have kids in my life, my parents, friends, and nowadays, and it was normal. They just couldn’t have kids. But nowadays, it seems like it doesn’t happen like that.

Yeah, it’s also I think, we want something to blame it on, you know, like, this isn’t my body, this isn’t your body. This is this problem that hopefully we can fix, or I can, it’s as a result of that, because I think it’s even more devastating to like, it’s my own body, or this person’s body that isn’t doing what I’ve always been told is biologically going to happen, so it’s easy to blame.

MBK

For Malcolm, you know, finally being able to grieve, as you put it so well, in the first chapter, when he finds out what he finds out. I think that the problem with it going on and on and on and on is you really aren’t able to grieve, you know, truly, because you’re trying again, you know, yeah, it’s exhausting. Hope is important, but it’s also very tiring.

Yeah. And it turns into such a desperation. And you’re right, you’re not able, you don’t see the end of it, if you’re in the middle of it, you know, also to that point, and one quote, The growing sense that life was passing her by, and if she didn’t do something, she’d leave nothing behind to prove she was even here. It’s such a strong feeling. I’ve been thinking about that a lot recently, I don’t have children. And I have heirlooms and traditions that, you know, I would love to pass down. But who do they go to? And there’s this song, actually, in Sunday in the Park with George that’s called Children and Art. And it’s about this very thing and it’s about the legacies people leave behind our children or art. And if you don’t have either one, how will you be remembered? And I think that just is struggling with that thought and it’s a hard thing to wrap your mind around.

MBK

Yeah, I agree. I think in some ways, Malcolm is struggling with it a little bit, too. He’s not quite, he hasn’t faced it full on in the way Jess has and, I think Jess is more tuned into how she feels in some ways. But, you know, I think this is probably I don’t love the phrase midlife crisis, but I guess that’s what it is, you know, at some point, you say like, I’m unhappy, everyone in this book, maybe everyone in the world I don’t know is a little bit unhappy, Malcolm less so but he has a dream that he may or may not realize sort of going flat in front of his eyes. But Jess, I mean, maybe Malcolm’s mom seems pretty happy. But Jess’ mother’s certainly not. I mean, to what degree can we change the lives we have? It’s one thing to talk about it, we see memes we see, you know, movies, but in real life, if I want to leave this house, and I want to go somewhere and be something else, what’s step one? What do I do? How do I get there? How do you make a life there? And I think that’s something they’re all thinking about. And so what you leave behind is sort of part of that, I think, when you feel like just does a little bit desperate, okay, like, this is not going to be the way that I’m going to do it. Well, she makes a move that to her may feel like she’s saving her own life, whether it works or not, you know, I don’t know, but I can, or I don’t want to say but I could certainly have sympathy for trying and Jess is, I think of her as above all a problem solver. You know, there’s another problem in the book that she tries to solve. And even if, you know, that’s a bad idea, and it sort of gets pushed to the side, sort of thankfully, she’s still just trying to solve, you know, she’s not going to lay by and just let her life destroy her. She’s going to try to take the reins a little bit, and I admire that, but yeah, what I think they’re both thinking about that Malcolm to everyone.

Yeah, then we meet Neil. He’s assertive and new. And Jess and Malcolm have been married for a while at this point and have experienced grief and heartbreak. And she sees Neil, who is new and different and comes with a family intact, and that’s very appealing to her. Why is that change so tempting? You kind of just spoke about it, but…

MBK

I mean, I don’t know. It’s in the first chapter. So I feel like it’s fair game. I don’t think she’s as calculated as I’ll probably imply when I talk about it, but he is, you know, she’s in a rut that’s been there for probably six, eight, maybe 10 years. I think she very much enjoys her job, doesn’t like commuting, the sameness of it, she sort of got looked over for a promotion, she had to sort of switch industries a little bit, you know, she’s just in a rut, and here comes this, it’s like a door that appears that you can walk through. And he pursues her, you know, he sort of makes it easy. Malcolm is so affable and easy, but sort of clueless, you know, in other ways, like, because he’s happy, he assumed she’s happy. And they’re in their own minds and in their own worlds. And so I don’t think she’s thinks of Neil, as, you know, a solution to her motherhood problem, but it’s definitely there. I think it makes him a lot more appealing. It’s rare to find someone who’s, you know, where the mother of the children is not as involved and so as you know, a problem solver, it would solve a lot of things. And she, I think, even though she’s, she’s tough, and a lot of ways I think she loves pretty easily. And I think she could have easily slipped right in and been at least with the kids, someone who was a big part of their lives. Yeah, so she has a decision to make in the book, without giving anything away.

Yeah, and she does seem very nurturing as well. So it also is because their mother isn’t in the picture as much as what you were just saying that the Neil has the children, but it’s almost like it’s a problem solving for that too. Like, oh, I can step in and I love these children. And I get to be there for them too, because they’re quite young. So she’s just such a nurturing person that you’re right as a problem solver, and just wants to kind of fix everything.

MBK

And it feels good to be needed, you know, and she would have been needed.

But yeah, while reading your book, I kept coming back to the story of Malcolm in the ocean, and how that made him realize he’ll always be rescued. It’s something I think it’s the attitude of most men, while women have to fight for everything, which I think is why Jess was so dumbfounded at this story. Did you mean to write it as an example of all men? Am I off base?

MBK

I know. But that’s actually a good point. I don’t know about all, I know a lot of men who are worriers, you know, deep worriers and Malcolm just isn’t, I do think if there’s any part of my husband in the book, and you know, this poor guy has put up with four books and people, friends, some, some of them can’t get their minds around the idea that you’re actually making things up, right. But if there is a part of Malcolm, that’s him. He used to always describe himself as the luckiest boy, like if anybody were at that time Malcolm get finds 220s on the street, just within a week of each other. That’s something that happens to my husband, Marty when he was young. And I’m like, of course, like that that happened. And so he thinks that way, like, of course, it’s gonna work out, I’m the opposite. I’m like, of course, I would have drowned, and no one would have known me. I think that moment, I just used to sort of capture Malcolm’s attitude toward life. We do this, we try this, you know, the end of the book sort of turns on it. And it’ll probably work. If it doesn’t, you know, something else will work. And it’s a good way to go about life. I’m not like that. But in a partnership, if you have two different types of people, then I guess that’s a good thing. Although I think sometimes if you’re partnered with a person like that, you have to do triple the worrying. You know, he’s not doing any like, well, I have to worry for you and worry for me. But ya know, I guess I didn’t mean it to be a commentary on all men. I don’t want anyone’s come at me.

I was very much generalizing as well. That is so funny, because I’m all for being, you know, adaptable and not having any worries. But there is if you are not that way, it can be so frustrating, because it’s like, how can you not be worried about this? How can this not be a concern for you? How can you just go to a bar and buy it? And then think about it? How, like, how is that possible? And it is for those people? It’s just like, just go work out? What do you mean?

MBK

Yeah, I don’t, I’m not like that. I think of things to worry about that aren’t even on this planet. Yeah. But I’m a worrier.

Malcolm is reflecting about their relationship and thinks about when he and just first said, I love you, when they got married, when they bought their house and did all of that normal couple of stuff, that there’s this assumption that it’ll work out, but it doesn’t always. And we take such a leap of faith with relationships. And I wonder if most people would, if they saw how it’s going to end would take that leap. And I’m wondering if you think that Jess and Malcolm would have leaped if they knew everything in front of them?

MBK

That’s a great question. I don’t think anyone would leave if necessary. I mean, I don’t know. I think I mean, marriage is surprising, and it’s strange. It’s the things that I got married young I was 25 the things that you think will bother you or the things you expect to come up or when they come up with, it’s never what you think it’s and the things that I thought bother me really didn’t. And then there’s all different things. It’s also a puzzle about you know, sometimes I feel like there’s a moment in the book where just wonders how you get a thought across without saying it. So I feel like I’m in general, pretty chill, but I have to sometimes say like, you know, you guys, like, I don’t know, wipe down the toilet seat, or like, these annoying sentences. Like, I hear myself being annoyed. Don’t leave your wet towels on the ground. And it’s really not just to the kids, it’s to my husband, too. And so, yeah, I get like rolling your eyes about that. But you know, it’s really a puzzle, like, how do I say it? How do I make it stop? Without setting it i So you, you’re in this position where you’re made to feel like a person who you are actually aren’t it? And then I think resentment can come from that be like, now I’ve been turned into a person who says, gosh, I don’t think we can afford that. You know, I’m like the the fun sponge. But how else do you get a thought across except to say it. And so that’s been, I think, the most surprising thing when you’re young, and you’re, or you’re, you know, maybe not young, but you’re first in love, and your dreams align, and you’re just so happy to be together. That’s great. Things are sort of easier. But as time goes on, you know, you’re still and always will be two very separate people. And so you start taking things for granted. And then it becomes such a shock when someone you know, maybe, maybe it comes out 15 years from now I expect to be here, like, oh, I expect it to be here. I didn’t know that. You know, there’s things like that that just come up every week, every day. And it’s like a renegotiation or recalibration all the time. And if it works, I think you’re very, very lucky. And I’ve been very lucky so far.

I love that. Thank you. We see this couple go through stuff that so, so many couples go through, and they don’t end up with a child, as you said earlier, what was your reason to not have that happen for them?

MBK

I mean, I think if it had happened, I considered it for maybe half a second, it just would like undermine the I don’t like to think that books have points, but it would undermine I think the book, which is really about them, you know, like if a child’s were to arrive and solve their problems, you know, what was the point of any of this? And so I just didn’t want to give them a child. And I decided early, I wouldn’t. I like to, I’ve seen it done in fiction, and I just get pissed. And I’m like, yeah, here’s a miracle baby. Right. Yeah. You know, so then what? What did all this mean, leading up to this? So I’m not Yeah, I wasn’t interested in giving them a kid.

Like you don’t, it’s not a fairy tale thing. I mean, and with having children. I know, that’s not a fairy tale sometimes, either. It’s a lot of hard work. But it I really appreciate it. It was just like, no, you can be fully formed as a family. And which I think Malcolm touches on at one point like you and I are family together. You don’t need this. We have enough, just the two of us. And I really, really appreciated that sentiment.

MBK

And it would have undermined that complete part of the book. Yeah. Yeah.

And he challenges Jess at that, too. He’s like, you said we’re a family. Isn’t this enough? Yeah. Why is this not enough? And I love you and I thought, you know, I can understand saying that and being like, we’re family, we’re enough, of course. And then when it is like we’ve gone through all of this, this is something you wanted, it is just the two of us. Is this still a family? What do you define as a family, it kind of goes back to what you were saying about the assumptions in a marriage of well, this is what I thought, well, this is what I thought, but I just loved that it was enough.

MBK

Or within a marriage to that sometimes we’re like, Yeah, it’s fine. It’s fine, when it’s absolutely not fine. And then the other partner is like, oh, she said, It’s fine. And moves it right on. And meanwhile, you know, not that the other person is lying either to themselves or to their partner, but it’s just not true, you know, and so she’s, she’s struggling.

An underlying theme of the book is secrets, and how they affect us. These characters all have something they’re hiding that really eats away at them, causing several of them to make life altering decisions. I loved this, because it made me realize that everyone has these, and we all think we’re the only ones and I just thought it was such a fun thing to read about all of these people. And now I’m gonna go out and wonder, whatever, what everyone’s secrets are when I’m out there, but it was such a great underlying theme.

MBK

I think everyone should have secrets. You know, I think some things are just for me. You know, even if you’ve been with someone for 30,40,50 years, there’s some things I want to protect that are my own thoughts that are my own. I don’t know dreams, I guess or ambitions for a future that I just don’t want to let anyone in on and I think it’s actually a good thing, even like once in a while. While when I’ve shared something that I, you know, is personal. And if it’s brought up again, even the person even to like my husband, who knows me better than anyone, it’s shocking to hear it repeated back to me. And it always feels a little bit diminished, you know, with no intention on his part or anything like that. And so I think it’s important, especially as like, a self-protective tool to keep a few things to yourself and not like, you know, adultery, or you’re not like stealing from your local Macy’s and stuff like that. But just private thoughts and hopes and ambitions and insecurities, things like that, I think. Yeah, I think it’s important and good to keep your secrets.

Yeah, I think that’s such a good reminder. Because I think it’s so easy or, or it’s easy to have the idea anyway, that when you’re in a relationship, you have to share everything, you have to do things together, or you have to have some friends or, or you have to know each other’s friends at dinner, even if you don’t hang out with them. And I do love the reminder of, we all have our own individual things. And that’s okay. Yeah, perfectly fine, and healthy and good. Yeah,

MBK

I think that’s something you learn over time, too. I’m not so sure. I would have agreed with that at like, age 20. But at 45 I believe it strongly.

When you’re that young, I think you want to tell your girlfriends or your friends everything, you know, and so you can’t imagine having a secret you can’t imagine being like, I’m gonna marry this person, I’m gonna be with this person for the rest of my life. And I’m going to tell them everything. What do you mean, I’m gonna have secrets? So I think it is right. As you get older, you are like, Oh, I don’t have to tell you everything. And that’s okay. It’s to your point. It’s not huge secrets that are going to get one of us in trouble or.

MBK

Little private things that make me, me and you, you.

Yeah. Did you write this during the pandemic?

MBK

I wrote a lot of it. I started it before the pandemic, not much of it, you know, the ugly first, I don’t know, 100 pages that I threw out. But yeah, the bulk of it was during the pandemic, which, you know, weirdly helped me. Okay,

I was gonna ask, did it change your process or anything?

MBK

I don’t know, if I’m a, you know, sociopath, or what, because I kept seeing people on social being like, I can’t write, I’m so worried. I think it was like a coping strategy. So everyone was at home, we have a small house, and I just ended up renting an office somewhere else. This like shared space that was like abandoned, so I got a good deal. And I was like, the only one there. And I don’t know, I was able to shut off for a few hours a day. And I think that the central loneliness of this book, I was telling my publisher that it is a COVID book, in some ways, even if it doesn’t seem that way. The snowstorm and keeping them locked in place, and wondering what everyone else is doing inside their houses, you know, that came from those feelings, except in real life. They were way, way worse. Yeah. So it was a COVID book in that way. But just getting into the nitty gritty, when the kids were first school closed, it was March 13, the Friday, they didn’t go back to synchronous learning in this district until the following September, they still were home. But they had to log in at a certain time. Before that. They could wake up at noon, do all their work in an hour. And so I didn’t feel I had to sort of be present for them. From like, 7am on. So I would go to this little office, knock out, you know, a couple of hours and then come home and like deal with them all day. And it was wonderful because I do my best writing in the morning. And it’s not been possible while they’re in school, just because they now get up so early. It’s like almost pointless. I think I was able to finish it more quickly because of the pandemic and shutdowns didn’t help.

During the pandemic, I was I have really bad FOMO if I’m out seeing people, I’m always like, what are they going home to do that looks so fun. But so I think there was also a for me a little bit of relaxation in that to be like, everybody’s going home, everybody, like nobody’s out having dinner with all of their friends, you’re not missing out on anything. So was any of that true for you were maybe that was the helpful part of like, you got to just go by yourself. First of all, you’re home with everybody. So probably be by yourself was also maybe really nice for a few hours. Really nice. But yeah, it was just like this for me like a release to be like you don’t have to worry about what other people are doing.

MBK

Yeah, the only thing is I still did either. There definitely is a degree of that. At one point I was driving around. So I live in the town where I grew up. So I know a lot of a lot of old friends live here and we’re very comfortable with each other and everyone was being safe and following the rules, but sort of after one a certain point, sort of toeing the line. Do you remember when people were like drawing in chalk lines on their driveway and like, you know, you’d be on one side and then your friend visits at the end of the driveway. So I would start driving around with like a six pack and a beach chair and if anyone was outside raking or leaving I’m like, Well, I have these drinks, you know, roll one over and set up my chair, have a chat for an hour and then go home. My husband who was far more are worried about getting COVID and fallen, he he really didn’t like this at all. I mean, we were like 20 feet away from each other in the sun. You know, I might like Chuck a bag of chips over the line. And I don’t know, I really needed that. And he didn’t. And it was a big realization about what each of us are like, you know, as a writer, I think of myself as being really interior. I’m an introvert. But I don’t think I understood the degree to which I need other people just to, and I never want to talk about writing, I never want to talk really about books unless I’m talking to book people like you. And so I don’t know, it’s such a relief from working in home to just go, you know, have a cup of tea, or a beer and a chat with some old front laugh for 15 minutes about something silly and then head home, but it ended up feeling like an affair in some ways. You know, because it’d be like, where were you like to see, you know, my friend, Kathleen, and we laughed, you know, we did like yoga, but across the driveway from each other. It was a real learning experience about marriage and each other. Yeah

And I mean, people were spending so much time together, I think so many people saw their partners in a new light, good or bad.

MBK

Yeah, it’s wonderful that he’s very happy to be stuck with me. And I was like itching to get out, he would say.

What is your writing process?

MBK

I mean, I used to have like a schedule. I mean, I try to write a couple hours each day, if I’m writing, but I’m not really uptight about writing every day, I think I’m writing even when I’m not writing, if that makes sense. You know, if I’m reading a lot, I’m sort of I can tell sort of in my body not to sound hippie dippie. If I’m super tuned in to something, I’ll start getting interested in something, I’ll start reading a lot about it. And I, I sort of lie to myself for a while about why, because I don’t want to every book is like my last book, I tell myself. So my process is also I’ve realized over time is just to have no process kind of I don’t outline. I don’t try to worry too much. As a worrier. This is hard for me, but I don’t, I’ve learned that there are going to be a lot of pages, I throw away a lot of drafts I throw away and that’s okay. It’s all necessary. It’s not a waste of time. And I’ve learned to sort of write to the energy of whatever it is, I want to write about that day and not worry about like, whether it’s consecutive, whether it has anything to do with what I wrote the day before, asked again, yes, was a lot like that, you know, in one minute, I’d be in the 70s in New York City and a police precinct. But then I knew that whatever scene was happening now, I had something to do with that. It just I just kept writing the scenes and figured you know what, I’m going to figure this out later. And this was similar in some ways Roddy kept popping up. And I didn’t know why I was even interested in him. It was more straightforward in some ways than my other books. And that was a relief. But my process is just to kind of let it you know, listen to what my body’s telling me and let it come the way it comes. And then sort of pretty it up later,

that Roddy twist, by the way it was

MBK

I didn’t see it coming out for Roddy, you know, yeah.

Yeah. Are you someone I just some authors do and some authors don’t? Are you someone who can read other people’s books while you’re writing?

MBK

Oh, yeah, I’m very picky. While I’m writing, I can’t tell you in advance. I just know within five pages, if it’s going to be a book I want to read, but it actually helps like it, it just like the quality. If I read something that’s really, really good. It doesn’t matter what it’s about if it’s contemporary, historical, so it doesn’t matter. It’s just really good. It’s so energizing, you know, it just makes me turn around and think like, what am I doing wallowing in this, you know, just trying to move chairs around rooms and getting people from A to B, you can just, you know, balls to the wall, get them where you want and just do it, you know, and I read Hamnet while I was writing this book, I think and I was like, Why are any of us trying to write fiction when this is the best book I’ve ever read? You know, and this book has nothing to do with that different time periods. But I remember like got me into my chair for a couple of weeks. Any good book is like that.

What kind of reader are you? Thrillers or mysteries or fiction?

MBK

Literary fiction, a long, sad book. You know, it’s right up my alley. If all the reviews say it’s so depressing. I think I’ll probably really love that book. Yeah, so I stick. I mean, mostly literary fiction, and I get sent a lot of books, you know, for blurbs and whatnot. And I think 12 years of Catholic school has left me feeling sort of obligated and I’m trying I never want to be a person who says I don’t learn because I’ve you know, I need to go begging for blurbs for every book still, but I can’t read too much of those if I’m writing but once in a while, then I get one from someone I’ve never heard of, and so good that I think I can never, ever have a nobler policy because if I had, I wouldn’t have seen this book sorrow and bliss by Meg Mason was one of those. I just absolutely love that book. And I wonder if like some part of me knows what books will serve my purposes and which won’t after I wrote fever, which was my second novel, it was historical about Typhoid Mary. I was off historical fiction for like four years. I don’t know, I just could not. And now I can. Not that I’m going to write another historical novel, but yeah, I don’t think that’s good. I can read. What’s books take so long. How can some people not read that whole time?

I find that interesting, too.

MBK

Like four years. You’re not going to read any fiction. That’s crazy.

Do you have any favorite books?

MBK

Oh, god. Yeah. Well, I mean, number one, no, I think it depends on my mood and my age. And I think my favorite writer of all time is probably William Trevor. His short stories in particular, some I read every year, I think I read every six months, he’s just, like, perfect to me. I think my early work, emulated his so much that it felt like a knock off William Trevor. But uh, now I think I’ve come into my own after very many years, but Seamus Heaney is another like, if I were on a desert island, I would probably bring Opened Ground with me because you know, he can do in six lines. What takes me 400 pages. Actually, Opened Ground by Seamus Heaney might be my number one book, book to just flip open and read. But yeah, it depends on some books that I didn’t think much of when I was younger. Now I, I look at differently. I don’t think I could pick a number one novel of all time.

I love that you’re a re-reader. So many people are like, I’m never going to read that book again, I loved it, but I’m a one-time person. But I love re-reading books, too.

MBK

I think a lot of times in especially in this country. We’re reading a lot of the classics too young. I remember I did something for Scribner, when they were reissuing Great Gatsby, and they asked me to write something about it. And I was like, oh, God, I remember that book being like, no, people were like in tennis whites and lying around couches. And I guess I’d read it when I was like 15. And I hit my dad was a tunnel worker. I didn’t understand anything about these people or the lights or whatever was happening. And then I reread it at like 37. I was like, Oh, this is a brilliant novel. I mean, I wish I waited. Yeah. I’ve been curious about a lot of other ones.

Yeah. It just I mean, with any age or anytime you read it, you’re whatever you’re you have life experiences that are different. And it’s I just always get something different when I reread my favorite.

MBK

I love it. Well, I might have judged previously. I now understand better. Yeah, yeah.

So what’s next for you?

MBK

Another novel, I’m sure I mean, I’m sort of simmering on a new idea. That’s sort of too, way too early to talk about. But I mean, I love writing novels. I always it’s my favorite part. I’m heading out into a book tour. You know, which I feel very lucky about a national tour for the halfmoon Bay. And I like that I like seeing readers. I’m so glad it’ll be in person. But my favorite thing is to just be alone, in that moment where you’re like, Oh, my God, I think it’s coming together. You know, you feel like despair, despair, despair. And then one day, I don’t know if something changes. And you’re like, Wait, this is something that’s it. That’s the whole reason to do it. Yeah, nothing else exists. You never wrote anything else. You’ll never write anything again. But this and that’s a feeling I’m always chasing. So I want to get there.

Well, that’s wonderful. Thank you so much for all of your time today.

MBK

Thank you. This is an honor.

It’s really, really wonderful to talk to you and good luck on your tour. And I’m reading your next book and books after that then, and truly, thank you. It’s lovely to talk to you.

MBK

Maybe I’ll see you around the store one day. Thank you very much.