Poured Over: Patrick deWitt on The Librarianist

By Jenna Seery / July 8, 2023 at 6:00 am

“… what is it like to live your life through the books you read?”

The Librarianist by Patrick deWitt is a warm, introspective novel about a retired librarian who lives his life surrounded by books, and the impact he has on those around him. DeWitt joins us to talk about finding the story’s voice, balancing humor and melancholy, writing in different genres and more with Miwa Messer, host of Poured Over. We end this episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Jamie and Mary.   

This episode of Poured Over was hosted by Miwa Messer and mixed by Harry Liang.          

Featured Books (Episode):
The Librarianist by Patrick deWitt
The Sisters Brothers by Patrick deWitt
Undermajordomo Minor by Patrick deWitt
French Exit by Patrick deWitt
Ablutions by Patrick deWitt
Stoner by John Williams
Tropic of Cancer by Henry Miller

Featured Books (TBR Topoff):
Fifth Business by Robertson Davies
The Last Chance Library by Freya Sampson

Full Episode Transcripts

Miwa Messer
I’m Miwa Messer the producer and host of Poured Over and Patrick deWitt. I mean, we’ve all read The Sisters Brothers, we’ve all read French Exit, lots of us have also read Ablutions. And I have to look at the book while I say this Undermajordomo Minor because dude, that is the title. And we may actually get to that book too. But The Librarianistis his new book. And just before I hit record, we were talking a little bit about Bob Comet, who’s a really great character. And Patrick, I’m going to ask you to introduce Bob, to listeners, because I just I’m so fond of this dude, I’m so fond of this character.

Patrick deWitt
Thank you so much. Bob Comet is a quiet and sort of introspective man. At the beginning of the book, we see him as a retired librarian, sort of casting around for something to do over the course of the book. And as he makes friends at a local senior center, he comes to bring literature to the people at the center. And this doesn’t necessarily go well, but he sticks around, makes some friends. And in the course of getting to know these people, they get to know Bob and the reader also gets to know about Bob’s history. So there’s flashback to his childhood. There’s also a flashback to his early mid 20s, when he was becoming a librarian, and then also the story of his sort of one stab at romance, and also his other stab at camaraderie with a man, this sort of triangulated relationship goes well until it doesn’t. And it all adds up to basically just a story of one man’s life. And he’s quite as we were saying before, sort of stoic and quiet for one of my characters. But of course, the world around him is fairly frantic and animated so he serves as something of a straight man.

MM
He is a straight man, but he’s also I just, I felt like reading The Librarianist things were a little more mellow. And granted, I had just done a massive reread of all the earlier books. And so in comparison, this is kind of a quiet, lovely book. And obviously, we’re gonna stay away from spoilers because the book has just come out. I really liked this dude and I wasn’t entirely sure what to expect. I mean, there is Ethan, the chaos machine. Right? There is Cindy. I mean, there’s part love story, right? There’s a little bit of an odyssey story that happened in flash back. I mean, there’s stuff that I think of when I think of you and your novels, there are elements that I recognize from earlier books.

PD
But it is something of a departure for me, I think it is, I think more overtly melancholic, I think that it’s just sort of quieter, and it’s still case, than some of the earlier works, this probably is just a natural occurrence. But I think that this mood was probably exacerbated by the pandemic. And just life during that period of time for all of us was fairly complex and I think I was a little bit subdued or blue, during the making of this book and that’s just reflected in the tone of the of the story.

Yeah, I was gonna ask if it was your pandemic novel, because it also took a little bit longer. There, it’s a much longer period between French Exit, and this novel than it seemed to have been like two to three years, sort of between each of the earlier books. Am I getting that right?

Yeah, this one took like three and a half years from start to finish and it was really complicated. And I lost some work in the beginning through a computer error, and I couldn’t really get a grip on the character Bob Comet in an earlier draft was much more sort of traditional character for me, and that he was a bit of a wild man. His wife, ex-wife, was the protagonist, and she was the librarian. And so it took me longer to, French Exit, in contrast, I sort of sat down and wrote three or four pages, and those wind up being the first three or four pages of the book, which isn’t necessarily the norm. But I don’t struggle in typically in the way that I started with this book. And I wound up overwriting it or just writing far more than is the norm for me, sort of, is the length of what’s published now. So, it’s not last time, that the fact that it took this much longer? Doesn’t really bother me, because I was working through that. I don’t know. Some are just harder than others. It seems to be easy, hard, easy, hard, is the sort of, so the next one will be easy. Theoretically. One hopes but yeah, you know, it being is it’s not about the pandemic, but it’s just about the frame of mind that I think I was living in during that phase of my life.

When you say the book was complicated to write, though. I mean, you’re just talking about structural ideas. And because I mean, the dialogue feels very Patrick to it to me, again, there’s stuff that I recognize and I’m dancing around obvious plot points, but there’s just some lovely stuff in this book. And I’m like, really? Okay, so you throughout, again, like half the length. I mean, it sounds like it was double the length from what you just said.

A bit less than double but you know, 200 pages, couple few 100 pages. And it was just more or less the book that you see now, but just more of it, you know, okay. And I printed it out and recognized that there was a book in a book in there that I would be proud of. But I was just not nearly there. Typically, when I print out a first draft, I’m closer than I was this one. So that was, you know, a year’s worth of quite brutal and gory edits and rewrites.

And I have to say, too, when I first saw Bob’s name, I started to laugh, because, you know, obviously, we have Eli and Charlie, sisters. And we have Lucy Minor. And we have Francis Price. And now we’ve got Bob Comet. I just I love that last name, I just think is so smart. But can we talk about the creation of Bob for a second, it seems on the surface, that he’s going to be this very pedestrian, kind guy. Yeah. And yet, he really is a comet. I’m sorry, I had to go there. I’m so sorry.

Yeah, I mean, things happen around him. And, you know, the emotion related to the occurrences of his life travelled through him in the same way it does for all of us. I think he’s just more subdued in terms of his reaction. And he’s not, he’s not an alpha character, and the way that different his friend sort of barrels through life and takes what he wants. And Bob is much more observant, and I can relate to both of those characters. But I think I skew a little bit more, Bob than Ethan. And the character of a librarian was something that has been percolating for a while, also just somebody who, who lives his or her life. with books, as you know, books have been for so many of us, you know, like, that’s like the constant companion. And so what is it like to sort of live your life through the books you read, I also wanted to show a character who, you know, I have a great admiration for booksellers and for librarians, obviously. And I think that it’s the, for the people who really inhabit that role. I think it’s a very special vocation. And I just admire people who devote their lives to the perpetuation of literature, it’s something that’s critical life. So it’s sort of a darling of my cat to people who do that. But yeah, the character of Bob, in terms of his relative simplicity, or, you know, his plastic point of view, I had the sense of, I don’t know if growth is the right word, but it is a different kind of book for me. And that was exciting, rather than, you know, and showing less and giving less and leaving more for the reader to sort of chew on and consider. Not that it’s, you know, I’m still there in the in the way that I, you know, in terms of being like, shepherding the reader through the universe of the book. But I think I’ve taken a step back, in a way, you know, so I think that there’s just more space for the reader in this book, which is writing for me.

It felt a little less frantic. I know, you talk about all of the things that sort of happened around Bob and his life, but it’s sort of a mellower book, even though there’s so much of you and in the voice that I’m used to when I think of your work, a joy to read, don’t misunderstand me, but it was really mellow compared to earlier stuff. And a little less frantic is the word that I keep coming back to like, because I love that energy in novels and that constant sort of, you know, because we have to get to the plot thing, the whole voice story plot thing, which we will come to, but I love the idea that so much happens in each of your books, and you can sort of, you know, put your hands over your eyes, and oh, no, okay. And that’s half the fun. And yet, Bob, I was just kind of like, Huh, who are you dude, like what is going on? And as he sort of making friends and sort of working his way through the world and all of that ground that he’s covering, you know, what is love? What does this mean? Do I know what love is? You know, he’s a little prickly, but this is a really charming novel.

Thank you. Thank you.

But can we talk about influences for a second? Because as I’m noodling through, prepping for the show, you know, names pop, and I think it’s also because you clearly have different influences for each of the novel’s but I ended up buying a Barbara Pym because of you and Ivy Compton-Burnett, because I just bought the other day, I’m waiting for the packages to show up. But like the mid-century British lady comedy of manners, I mean, but anyway, there’s some stuff I need to talk to you about some reference points because this is not what I was expecting.

Yeah, I was trying to sum up the influences for this book, because most books do have sort of specific influences. And so much time elapsed in terms of the creation of this book. And my reading was fairly wide reaching or wide ranging during the writing. The influences are less specific, I think for this one for the earlier books, but some that I had been coming back in my mind, somebody brought the book Stoner by John Williams. Yeah, I think that that is largely absent the humor that is sort of evident in this book, but there is some sort of sameness there to me. And that is just sort of a long form dissection of an introvert and what life is like for somebody who, who lives within himself or herself. So there’s that I was thinking of Jane Bowles, actually, because I always think of Jane Bowles, especially the third section with the runaway like the two women, the character Bob Comet as an 11 year old, in the middle of 1940s, falls in, he runs away from home, and he falls into the sort of troop of, I don’t know what to call them avant garde pacifist playwrights with anyway, you know, a couple of characters. And both of those women to me are reminiscent of something having to do with Jane Bowles, just her general spirit, or her sort of art, and brilliant take on life during her time. And then lastly, I thought of a book called Stop-Time, which was a memoir written by a man named Frank Conroy, which especially his childhood recollections of his complicated family life, it’s just a very special book that stay with me, I read it several years ago, but it’s sort of rare. But as I say, the influences I think, oftentimes with the earlier books, you can sort of go one to one where it’s like, this section was influenced by this book. And I liked doing that I like, specific knowledge. But I think that this book is more sort of just, I think the jumping off point for me was just that this book was wanted to be and was going to be a little bit more melancholic, and placid last year, I suppose, than the earlier books. So I just sort of got out of the way as much as I couldn’t let that happen.

Yeah, one of the things I like hearing you say that too, that it’s, you know, austere, and I got out of the way, I mean, you’ve talked about how Sisters Brothers started for you, you’re like, well, you know, I had some vague dialogue. Yeah. And then Eli got my attention and then Charlie got my attention in the world got my attention. And then you basically just flew through and wrote it, reading The Librarianist just feels so different, and actually quite a lot more interior than I think any of the earlier books, even Ablutions, which obviously, is told in the second person, it’s the only time you’ve done that, and there’s that intimacy to using the second person, which I love. I mean, it’s a device that I love. And I don’t think it would have worked for the other books. But there is an intimacy to The Librarianist that I think, it’s not that it’s missing from the other books, it’s just it’s present here in a way that is not present in the earlier books. And I’m wondering if that just again, is an outcropping of, you know, sort of what your where you were when you started to sit down and write it.

I think that with a character like Bob, if you give him time to get under your skin, and if you live with him for a while, he does become quite vivid. It did for me anyway. And ideally, he will also for the reader. It’s funny, though, because that entire book was written in first person, submitted it in first person. And it was being edited in first person, I was speaking with my US editor, Helen about something had been bothering me, or any number of things had been bothering me, writing a book, there’s always things that are bothering you. But something had continued to nag at me. And it occurred to me that Bob wouldn’t speak this much, he wouldn’t. He wouldn’t say, as much as what is in the book. And so I rewrote the entire book in third person. And yet, my concern was that it would become less personal, less about Bob, and yet somehow, some way that either maintained its proximity to Bob, or the interiority you’re discussing, may be sort of made it more so odd thing? You know, it’s such a funny thing like of the point of view, the second person voice of Ablutions. That was written in first, and then third, second. Yeah, it was something that was missing from each one. But notes I had been writing to myself when I was working at that bar. I always addressed myself as you. I was leaving notes for myself. So I wouldn’t forget. I would say you did this; you did that. And why were the notes so compelling when the text when I transferred it to first or third? I mean, this is just sort of dorky and we’re sort of discussing craft in a way that maybe will be dealt for some people but there is some kind of a magical occurrence when you really finally find the voice and the book becomes itself. It’s just so exciting. And so something about changing the first person voice, very personal voice solidified the book for me, and it made Bob that much more three dimensional.

Yeah, I think it really is, you know, comes back to this idea of you know, what, when you see it or you note when you hear it, and I mean, there are just times with and I’ve been a bookseller for a really long time, but there are times where you pick something up and you just don’t care. Next with whatever it is, and sometimes it’s character but if the voice isn’t there for me, I have a very hard time. And I don’t need to like characters. I don’t care necessarily, if stuff happens, it’s a bonus if it does, but like sometimes I just want to hang out, but if the voice isn’t there, I’m gone. That is the thing I cannot like, again, and I don’t care if I like the person, I don’t necessarily care if stuff happens or not. But if there’s no narrative voice to the thing as a as itself, I can’t do it.

Yeah. I really agree. And I’ve likened it in the past to socializing. You know, you meet somebody, and there’s just the frequencies on the line, or they’re talking about things you don’t care about, or their, their point of view is alien to you in some way and you can’t relate. It’s just the same thing with literature for me, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve picked up a book that I’ve been told, I would love and there’s just nothing there for me. And it’s not really fundamentally a critique of the author, it’s just sort of, sometimes we just pass one another by and the frequencies don’t align. But it is a bit of work to get the frequency to align with oneself. Like as an author, are you presenting yourself to the fullest? Are you allowing the characters to be themselves to their fullest extent, but it involves a lot of casting around. And as you say, listening, that’s really the word is listening for the book.

So for you, it’s language.

You see it, you’re living with it as a document in your day. But so much of the work is your reading the work in the way that a reader is and so it’s that suddenly something will just, you know, it will sort of illuminate, and then it’s just a question of fleshing that feeling out to its fullest potential or conclusion.

Which you can’t do without language. Sorry, I keep I keep falling back on language because one, your dialogue is great. It’s a very tight cast this book. I sort of think of it really as Bob and Connie and Ethan. And then the two ladies that we meet later. I mean, there are, don’t misunderstand me, there are other characters who roll in and out. But they’re sort of — that cast of five is sort of the soul of the thing for me, at least in my experience. And you know, he meets people later and just Linus and Maria. I mean, they’re great. They’re really, they’re wonderful characters. And I mean, the people who really made Bob, the Bob that we meet in this book, are those four that I just mentioned. Are you starting with language? Are you starting with the character? Or can you not separate the two? Because I know voice is the thing for you. I mean, you’ve said this multiple times in other interviews, that voice is always the thing you come back to, but you have to start somewhere, you have to build a voice out of something, right?

Yeah, yeah. And it’s just a question of trial and error. I’m doing it right now. I mean, I took a day off today. But I’m in a phase right now where I’m trying to start a new book, I know what the story of the book is, I know what I want to accomplish emotionally. I know where the book will take place. I know there’s all these things about it. But I don’t know who the protagonist is. And I don’t know if it’s going to be first or second or third person. These are all things that are sort of bothering me or I’m addressing now. I was feeling disheartened earlier in the week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, because I wasn’t becoming any clearer as the days were going by. And sometimes there’s the sense of, okay, there is no character here. And so you jettison whatever you’ve got and you either approach it from a different angle, as I did with the earlier iterations of the Bob Comet story, or you just throw it away, and you start over, I’ve got other ideas to try to write another book. You know, I’m gonna listen to myself more now or listen to the work more now. It’s really an uphill battle for I’m going to jettison the work quicker. I’m glad I didn’t win this book. And I’m very proud of this book. And I am so pleased with how it turned out. But at the same time, there’s so many stories to be told, and you have to get on with it. Right? So to me three and a half, four years is a little bit long for me to go into books. And the earlier sort of two years between each one made more sense to me. So as I say, I’m going through this situation now trying to figure out who this character is, it’s getting closer. Oftentimes, you’ll learn who a character is, through his conversations or her conversations with other people. So I’ve seen this person with his father, he’s visiting his father we haven’t seen in a couple years. And you’re getting really exciting to me, I’m getting closer, I can sense it. I’m not there yet at all. And if I showed it to you, you would just think it was really vague and boring, because it’s nowhere near there yet. But as I see this person, and again, it’s very much like socializing. You see somebody interact with other people and you learn who they are, by the way they listen and what they don’t say and their response to an insult or provocation or a compliment or whatever. So I’m just you spend time with these people and they either become whole or they don’t, and when they don’t you throw them away.

It’s true though. There are so many so many variations on stories that you can tell, you’ve said that writing Sisters Brothers changed you, as a writer, the difference between you know the experience of writing Ablutions which you know you’re doing, in kind of avoid, there’s this legendary story that you pass a copy off to D.V. DeVincentis, and he’s like, Hmm, I guess I will read this because it is pretty great. Then you have all of the success of Sisters Brothers, were shortlisted for the Booker Prize. And while I’m reading the coverage of Undermajordomo Minor, you’re referencing a book a novel that you’re working on about an investment banker who flees to France, because he doesn’t want to go to jail. And I’m like, well, there’s the seed of French exit. But clearly, that is not the book. So is that the process you’re talking about? It’s like, I just couldn’t get it. I didn’t care. I was bored. I just it didn’t work. And then I, you know, I put it on the shelf kind of thing.

Yeah, I had high hopes for that book. And I actually spent a lot of time and, and energy and got a residency apartment in Paris, moved my family to Paris. And I got there and I said, alright, you know, cracking my knuckles rolling up my sleeves, and here we go. And then every day, it was just sort of a flatline. So I decided, I started writing Undermajordomo Minor, which was much more cooperative and enjoyable for me. And then the book after that became French Exit. And it sounds odd or false or something, but the truth is, I didn’t recognize that there was a connection between French Exit and the aborted investment banker novel until either the midpoint of French Exit or maybe when finished. And they’re not the same book. But it’s the same world, it’s the same, my intention was more or less the same. I devoted the French Exit to what would have been the auxiliary characters in the earlier book, which is going to focus on the man, this man has now been, he’s sort of dead or not dead he’s living in. And he has a sort of cameo and what was going to be his story, but he brought up being a character that wasn’t particularly interesting as compared to his wife and son, you amble sort of through this party of people, and you stick to the ones that are amenable to telling their story. And also, you’re looking for the ones that have a story to tell, that’s engaging for me as a reader, and then you flesh it out and share it with the world.

Does each book change you, as you write them? I mean, you’ve already alluded to the how The Librarianist has changed and sort of changed you and has put you in a different space when you’re working. But I’m just wondering about the other books too.

it’s hard to start a book, and you hear about this, like an actor will immerse himself or herself in a role and then they can’t just turn it off and go home. And then it bleeds into, you know, subsequent roles, or it can. I think when you spend three and a half years looking at the life of one person, it’s hard to move on emotionally. And then when you try to tell somebody else’s story with the next book, it doesn’t really make sense, emotionally, why you’re still halfway in this other world. And now I’m just beginning to discuss The Librarianist and discuss Bob Comet. And there’s this phenomenon of not knowing, you know, having to verbalize these questions are new to me. And by the end of the tour, you know, all the answers to the questions. But in the beginning of the day, you just don’t really know. And so I’m sort of casting around for, how do I feel about this? Or that or how did I come to write this and you figure it out as you go, but all this to say, the process of having a book come out, does not lend itself to the writing of the next book, right? And it’s a quality problem, and I’m not really complaining, I’m just saying it’s, it’s hard to focus on Project B, when you’re still halfway living in the world of Project A.

Talking about balance to I’m gonna flip it for just a tiny bit, balancing the humor with the melancholy and not letting the works and they get a little slap sticky, which, you know, you have a restraint to your humor, it makes me think of Lorrie Moore, a bit where it’s just, I know that the dialogue is gonna snap, I know, I’m gonna learn all sorts of great stuff about these characters are wild stuff or whatever. I mean, and I’m just kind of laughing thinking about Ethan, the chaos monster, and he ends up in Acapulco. And that’s all I’m gonna say there. But I mean, I was howling when he came back and like, of course only eaten could have. And here’s Bob sort of responding to this very wild story as only Bob can respond to his friend, but that could have blown up in a way. I mean, I could see how easy it would be to let that sort of continue, you keep winding it back in unexpected ways. And I’m wondering for you as the writer, if that is like a fully conscious thing, or again, if you’re just listening to what’s there and just paying attention to what you’re hearing from your characters, or if you’re just like, I can’t go as far as I want to go.

Well, this is what the first draft is for, you know, and then you look at it and okay, I’ve gone way too far. I mean, that’s sort of the editing for me is that that balance hasn’t been mastered yet or met. And I think that the balance of this book or the taste of this book, is than the earlier books and that I think that the melancholic is a little bit heavier. I don’t know again, if that’s just how I’m going to work now, or this is the register that I feel comfortable in now, or just a document of the time I am feeling, as most of us are, I’m feeling sort of more optimistic than I was, say two years ago, three years ago. I mean, there’s less to worry about. And the world is still like a troubling, sickening place. In a day to day, way I feel cheerier, which is happy news for me. But you know, what will it do to the book, if anything, the measuring outcomes, it occurs in real time when you’re writing the pages and rough draft, but it really happens later. There’s no language, even in my mind that I use, it’s just typically it’s like long comedic conversations can be cut in half in my experience, but I could go on forever, and I enjoy going on forever. And that’s why this book is so much longer than the published version. Because if you get a couple or three or four, you know, semi lunatic characters to discuss the gibberish and guard up their brains. It’s fun, it’s entertaining for me. Then yeah, it comes down to what’s best for the book. And, and the question is, and this is also obviously where the editorial process with working with you know, your editor comes in and, and will sort of say, this is a bit much can we trim this down, and it says, seemingly vague directive, but they’re talking about that measurement, they’re talking about that, that takes that overall taste and lives in a maudlin scene goes on for a little bit too long, or a comical scene goes on for a little bit too long, it can spoil the entire document, or it can mark it, you know, so at a certain point of feeling takes hold, which is that you want the best not just for the characters, but you want the best for the book. And you recognize it is one thing in the way that a film is one thing it’s not. Because it can feel very scattered, you know, there’s so many scenes and view and chapters and eras. And so it seems like something that is much more wide ranging and sort of open ended. But as you get closer to completing the book, you recognize it as a solitary piece of work, you just try to make it sort of the most, the cleanest and most gleaming and presentable version that it can be.

But in terms of the evolution of your work, too. I mean, you’ve been playing with genre and I’m certainly not the first person to point that out. But one of the things that I love is that you’re just using whatever elements you know, yeah, Sisters Brothers is a Western but it’s also a road trip kind of novel. And then you’ve got the Gothic and the fairy tales and the love story of Undermajordomo Minor. Ablutions really kind of is its own thing. I quite liked it, but it is very much its own, sort of, I suppose you could argue it’s, you know, straight up Hero’s Journey kind of thing, only it’s an anti-hero. And then French Exit, comedy of manners. But there’s also a little bit of comedy of manners happening in Undermajordomo, then we’ve got The Librarianist which is more sort of a classic coming of age.

28:45

Yeah, it feels more traditional. Proper, big boy novel. That’s how it feels.

I mean, ok. You said it.

Yeah, no, but I wasn’t aiming for that. But at a certain point, I recognized that I was addressing things that I had read in another kind of book, which isn’t even necessarily kind of book that I read anymore. But you know, Herzog or know what books I’m referencing, and I wasn’t thinking of them, per se, but it seems much more traditional in some way. Sort of, like, you know, the full scope of one person’s life from start to end.

Yeah, there’s a little bit of a John Updike swing to it.

Those aren’t my guys, I don’t even, no offense. I mean, it’s almost like a sort of mishmash of that middle 50s. You know, commonwealth, typically, female writers sort of imposed onto this other sort of traditional American storytelling architecture. I’m casting around the extents of it and there I can’t really because it’s the works are mysterious to the makers, I think in some way and that says, should be, but it seems to be that there’s like a confluence of inspirations for this one.

There’s a little Anita Brookner feel to it.

I haven’t read any of Brookner. But that’s on the list of why I haven’t read, you know, I gotta get to it. There’s too many to get. That’s somebody I will surely get to.

I think we all have those lists. I mean, I sort of laugh at what’s on my list. I keep attempting Middlemarch and I keep failing. Like, you know, at some point, I’m just gonna have to give up. Yeah, just gonna have to give up.

I’m gonna read Middlemarch. And I’m been told so many times. It’s sickening that I haven’t read it. And then I would love it. And I, I’m sure that that’s true. But, you know, hours of the day, right?

Yeah, I even just bought a new copy with French flaps. And when I say just buy this is like six months ago, I was like, Well, if I buy a prettier copy, maybe? No. Yeah, okay, well, it’s not happening. So you are not alone.

Walking away though, too. And admitting defeat or whatever you’re admitting when you turn away from a book I used to when I was younger, struggled through books, and told myself it was for the greater good and that I had to do my homework more or less. But whenever I get that homework field, now, I just leave, because I don’t want to I didn’t like homework in school. And I don’t like it now. And I don’t believe that as necessary. I think that reading should be for pleasure.

We started Poured Over a couple of years ago at this point. And in the last sort of few weeks, now that I’ve had some time to think about it, I should have started independent study sooner. I had a perfectly fine time in school and did quite well, and all of this other stuff. But I just the way that I get to approach each episode of the show is just kind of like mini independent study for every single episode. And I’m like, Oh, this is fun, because I just got to find the spine of the thing and think, Alright, let’s see where this goes. Let’s see what we can uncover. I’m like, Yeah, I should have done this a lot. I should have gone to one of those colleges, where you sort of design your own curriculum.

Well, that was how I came to read the people that I read is I didn’t go to college, and I went to the library. And so a lot of trial and error and a lot of reading books that I knew that I was supposed to read, and some of them delivered on their promise, and some didn’t. But casting around on your own, I think is a special thing. And being lost and like finding your way and finding your people. Authors, it’s been critical to my writing, because it is such a sort of labyrinth, you know, there’s so many times writers lost to the point where it wasn’t necessarily loving reading, and then you backtrack, and okay, wherever I made my mistake of want to read that, you know, whatever, that was not that interesting for you, and you move on towards the things that move you. Good news is, I will never get anywhere near reading all books that are for me, I can live 100 years and I’ll never get, it’s endless. You know, it’s an endless supply of excellent artworks for us to ingest.

So it’s totally true. Your dad turns you on to the beats the right. Am I remembering that correctly?

Yeah, that was something that was big for him. It’s funny, because I was just writing a response to an email interview, and I was asked what books worked for me as a youth, which don’t work for me now. And I think a lot of a lot of people who have read the beats, certainly the beats anyway, in their youth returns, sort of like, I don’t know, it doesn’t really resonate with me so much anymore, but there’s an energy to it that was really infectious to me as a young writer, and they, I mean, it seems sort of slapdash to me now, some of it, but it seemed free in a way that was really intoxicating. And, and it was and it is, you know, I mean, that’s the function its function is to represent, you know, a wild life story told in a wild with wild language and time passes, and it doesn’t make sense anymore. To me, aesthetically, you know, it’s not what I’m looking for.

Yeah, I tried to reread Henry Miller, Tropic of Cancer as an adult. Oh, do not that is meant to be read when you are 18. That is just not one of those books that you carry over. And I remember reading it, you know, obviously, my freshman year in college and thinking, wow, like, wow, what and then oh, no, no, like, Bukowski, I can’t do Bukowski anymore. I have this beautiful edition of Love is a Dog From Hell, you know, one of those black Sparrow presses. And I keep it because it’s pretty, but like, I mean, I can’t there’s a lot of stuff where I’m like, no.

Yeah, yeah, it just doesn’t make sense anymore. You know, I hadn’t read Miller since high school or something. I had similar experience of just loving it and loving its wildness and its vulgarity and everything. I found this book of sort of like a picture book. You know, it’s pictures of him playing ping pong with like a woman with no clothes on and he’s an old man. Living in wherever, Big Sur, wherever. I like Henry Miller, I’ll get this book and it was cheap. And then there’s these interviews. And he just he’s just a repellent, woman hating monsoon. And I don’t know how this made sense to me before, but really hard to get through now. So I think we’re on the same page, some of these things make sense. And also, I mean, also, societally, we’ve just changed and things that were seemed to edgy before or whatever, however they save, now just seem kind of plainly ugly. And we don’t need them anymore, you know. So we move on.

Yeah. And we were barbarians in the 90s. We were just all barbarians, like when I think of some of the stuff that got published. And this is sort of, you know, as the internet is becoming the internet, as we know, it, the kind of writing that people are doing, whether it was criticism, or literature or whatever, there was just there was a lot happening. And you could see people sort of challenging boundaries, and a lot of it needed to happen. Please don’t misunderstand me like a lot of it was exciting. And then some of it was just trash. Yeah, some of it was just bad. Like, wait a minute. And I have to say, like, you know, Leaving Las Vegas, I remember that when that came out. And we were all sort of talking about it and reading it, and all I could think is, oh, wow, okay. Ouch. Every book has its time and has its place. Right. And part of what I really appreciate, though, about what you’ve been doing through all of the books is that there’s a timelessness like, honestly, I wouldn’t have known necessarily. I was I had a moment where I was thinking, Well, you know, this is present day, whatever. And then I realized, oh, no, you’ve got this pre Great Recession. This is sort of, 05, 06 when we’re in the present day, but I liked that timelessness. I liked that idea that Bob is just sort of not a fixed point. But that he is who he is and he’s very consistent, which I like. And you can sort of see who he is as a tiny person and where like older Bob is going to come from, and I’m really dancing around some stuff that happens. But like many kids, he has done the running away thing. Yeah, only because he’s Bob. I want to sit with the timelessness for a second because even even with The Sisters Brothers, like, yeah, it’s 1850 Whatever. And, you know, friendships that I sort of feel like could be any moment in time.

I remember when French Exit was set to publish, saying to my editor, Megan, this is just really an unfashionable book. This is not a book of its of its time. And met that I sort of realized that and it’s a bit defeating to recognize that but I think I knew from the start that I was never going to be one of these up to the minute sorts of people I was never going to be Mr. heartaches, you know, I’m just not, it’s not who I am. And I live largely out of time, the way I live my life, not that I’m living, I’m not like riding around on the pennyfarthing and smoking a pipe. I don’t mean that I just mean, I’m not looking backward. I’m just sort of, I feel like I’m out of the game, in a lot of ways. And it’s not a negative feeling. And I don’t mind this, but I think that that feeling is reflected in the books every day. I’ve talked about this before. Ed Roche, Angeleno artist that spoke in one interview, referenced is interested in his shelf life and that resonated with me in some way, I think above and beyond his intention. And I just really thought, yeah, that’s what I want. I want something I want my work to be useful later in the same way that I want it to be useful now, I’m not aiming for any sort of like contemporary commentary. If that occurs, it’s happenstance. And I didn’t mean to do it. I don’t really have that much to say about the current moment, but I think I do have something to say about being a human being alive. And so whatever emotional information exists in my books, my hope is that it’ll resonate, for, you know, the next generation as well. And I don’t know if that’s how books, I don’t know, books will be read to such a degree 50 years from now, who knows? But if they are, I hope that mine still makes sense, emotionally.

I think that’s part of the beauty though, of books is that we have the time and the space to sit. I mean, I’m horrified by the idea that there are people who are saying, well, the 80s, it’s historical fiction, like, No, we can’t. That’s that. No, we need at least a century like we can’t that. Can you give me 50 years, not something that just happened. But I think it’s really important to recognize that novels really do lend themselves more to a moment in time and not necessarily our moment in time. And that’s part of what I love about them. Like I love the idea that you were traveling back in time and Bob’s life.

Well, a lot of people are finding that jarring or some people are just there already. And just in terms of wait, why are we it’s so far back, you know, you go from 70, some 72 or 3 and now he’s like, it’s, it’s a, it’s a big stretch of time. But to me, it is more of the same information because it is the same, the same vessel. I think what a lot of people change, I think of myself as somebody who has changed and how many iterations. And I, when I’ve looked at myself when I was 21, like, I don’t recognize that person. I don’t know where he was, why was he doing all the things that he was doing? I just mean, his points of view and his opinions, and I got it. And I think Bob is the opposite. I think Bob is solid. And so the emotional information of his being 11 is identical in importance and texture as him at 72-73.

Yeah, I didn’t think it was that much of a jump, I really didn’t, I just I wanted the information, I wanted to know how we got because Bob is skittish, he doesn’t really know how to make friends, he doesn’t really know what it means to be in love. I mean, Bob’s mother is a little complicated, he could have turned out very differently.

I think it could have been a darker story, if it were not for the fact that he, there’s a line about him sort of subscribing some minor amusements, or is not hard, he’s easy to please. And that is his needs are easily met. And he knows what he wants. And he’s modest, his ambitions are modest, right. So this is a recipe for somebody who will probably feel relatively comforted, and pleased throughout the course of his life. And I think that that’s a good model, as a way to achieve peace in one’s life is to sort of I was thinking of my own reading, I suppose when I was invoking sort of the sense of like, there’s a line of a room filled with printed matter was a room is a room which needs nothing. It’s a very pro book book, generally. But I think that that’s true. I cannot stop buying books. And I will not get to the books that are in my home, maybe half the books in my home I’ve read, I’m always reading, I’m never not reading. But why don’t I stop buying books? And the answer is because I can’t and because I don’t want to. I’m shoring up for my ongoing quest, right. And the quest is endless, or it ends when you die. So until that point, I will continue to seek out ways to spend my time wisely, or whatever way that I feel is wisely. And there’s no wiser way to spend time for me outside of spending time with my loved ones. Then reading a book that makes me want to write that inspires me to continue to write.

And reading is an act of connection. There’s so many people who think that reading is like a solitary, quiet, weird thing that you do in the corner. And I’m like, No, actually, it’s a way of connecting to all of the stuff that is so much bigger than you or your life or anything else. You know, it is this active thing. It’s not just kind of you know, noodling through whatever. I mean, it’s unscrambling a story in your own head. I mean, some people will see books very cinematically, as they read. I mean, everyone has a different experience of a book because they bring their own life to the book to, you know.

Yeah, if I feel lonely, while I’m reading a book, it means that the book isn’t working for me. If it is working for me, loneliness is the furthest thing from my mind. So I think that that’s something that Bob can very much relate to. And this is why he’s occasionally being described as sort of a sad man. And I think that there’s an aspect of sorrow to his life or his life experience, but he would maybe not be able to relate to that summation of his personality, because he’s had all these friendships, you know, with authors that he’s read. And those are real friendships. And it is it is a collaborative medium when I’m reading a book by an author who I think is really nailing it, or really getting to something meaty. It’s such a lively conversation. You know, it’s not one way. It’s a two way communication. And that’s one of the miracles or magic tricks of the written word.

I’m also one of those people who writes over galleys. I don’t necessarily write, it depends on what I’m reading for. I mean, if I’m reading just for pleasure, then chances are good things are not getting marked up. But if I’m reading for work, or the show, I dog ear, I pencil, sometimes I yell at the text. You know, we all have opinions, but also it’s looking for sort of the spine of the story, right? What’s the thing that is going to drive a conversation forward? Or what’s the thing where like yeah, I don’t think we’re gonna talk about I don’t like giving away spoilers. So you know, that’s an easy sort of decision to make in the you know, oh, yeah, we’re super not talking about that because the joy of Bob’s life sort of unfurling in front of you, and it was a gentle sort of ride through a world that I wouldn’t necessarily be part of. Yeah, I mean, there’s the book thing and everything else. But Bob’s life is quite staid compared to mine and a lot happens in Bob’s life. Do you miss him?

Yeah, I mean, I still think of him a lot. And now I just, I just got the proper copies. So I just got the, you know, hardcover copies in the mail. And there’s a year after the composition of a long form project where you’re sort of wondering, you know, I’m no longer living in it. So I am outside of it. And I’m looking in at this thing. And it’s always a little bit mysterious to me. And this is why sometimes it’s difficult to answer questions about the composition of about how did this book come to be written? And it’s just sort of the answer is, I don’t really know, other than I showed up every day, and did what I thought was just in best for the characters. But after you say goodbye to the characters, they definitely linger. It’s not problematic. It’s not. I’m not weeping at the loss of Bob. But there is also one, you know, wondering about him in some way that maybe feels odd and that he’s not true person. Which I’m aware of. But, yeah, you know, a character is gotten under your skin when you sort of miss them. I guess is just the word and I missed Eli Sisters, I miss Frances Price. I don’t really miss the protagonist in Ablutions that much. I do. I do miss Bob. But there he is, you know, so anytime I want to see him, I can just go take a look.

Yeah, and Ablutions to, to me, is someone who’s learning the craft, like, yeah, it’s, it’s a great read, I flew through,

I think the wheels came off with that one, I think I swung pretty wildly this way, in that that’s a book written by somebody who was not even considering that the book would ever be read. It was and I don’t mean that in a bad way. And I use I think that it’s, some of my better moments are in that book. It was surprising where the book went. And I was sort of witnessing myself becoming an artist in real time. Yeah, I’ve been struggling to ends occasionally sort of hitting a note here and there over the previous 10 years preceding the writing of Ablutions. I tried so many times in so many ways to make something that would be worth the time of the reader to sit with it and read it. And it was just so touch and go and, and so much of that work was just shabby and bad, because this is just what happens to all people. It’s my apprenticeship, right? The 10,000 hours, or whatever it’s called, but Ablutions. Somehow the door was opened for me. And I was allowed, I felt allowed to make quality work for the duration of the project. Whereas I tried any number of times to write a book and I get 50 pages in and recognize that it wasn’t a book or even a short story. Throw it away, start over again. But that feeling never arrived at Ablutions. And it’s a short book, but it was a book and I had written it, and I couldn’t believe it. And I was, was it the book, The defining book of my career? Like, of course, I don’t think that it was. Maybe that book has been written yet or will be, but I just mean, I look at that book, and I don’t really recognize my voice. My voice wasn’t fully there yet. I think I had something to say. And I think it stated with an amount of panache. It’s very much a first book.

No, it definitely is a first book. But I don’t think panache can be underrated, to be honest, because I can look at all of the other books too and say, oh, yeah, there is definitely some style and some verb here that not everyone can capture. And for me, it comes back to dialogue, it comes back to, you know, the snap in the language and the juxtaposition that we get sort of between the world and what your people are doing in the world and that sort of that collision. And that for me is the fun of reading you so it’s it was it was a little wild going back to Ablutions being like, Oh, right. This is how all the start. But you can see like, as someone who lives and dies by post it notes, anyone who works with me can tell you I may pull a post it notes, computer monitor covered and post it notes, because I have a very large laptop. Alright, I knew this was going to happen. We bumped up against time. So I’m just going to say that’s a really good good place for us to wrap up. Patrick deWitt. Thank you so much The Librarianist is out now if you haven’t read Sisters Brothers yet yeah, or French Exit or Ablutions are Undermajordomo Minor. Well, those are available too, but maybe just spend a summer with Patrick.