Interviews
Cupid as Bully: A Talk with Thom Gunn
Bathhouse poems were a pretty risky way to start a poetry career when Thom Gunn first began publishing. In the 1950s, Gunn's sensual, vividly detailed poems about love and homosexual desire -- poems widely considered among the best verse of our time -- delved into subject matter editors felt free to reject on "moral" grounds. The decades have proved that Gunn was no publicity-seeking sensationalist but a masterful poet committed to form and deeply involved in bringing 18th- and 19th-century French influences into English. With the years, Gunn's work has become more vibrant, openly funny sometimes, and cuttingly precise in its observation. Gunn has always been interested in visual detail, and even coauthored a book of poems with his photographer brother, Ander, titled Positives, which traces the arc of life through photographs, elegantly pairing poems to pictures. Writing about a child or a bent, elderly woman in those photographs, Gunn is ever alert to feelings of love, power, and helplessness -- all related to his major repeating theme of desire as the core of humanity. A Briton who moved to California to join his lover, Gunn spent many years teaching at Berkeley and recently retired. Along the way, he's won numerous awards, including the MacArthur Fellowship and a Lila Acheson Wallace prize. But the America he lives in now, the America he has written about so touchingly in many of his 12 books of poems, is not the America he first moved to. Gay literature is a thriving category, and there are many outstanding gay poets actively publishing poems. The then-shocking moments in Gunn's work no longer create waves, and now, the poems' beauty can stand on its own terms. But Gunn still loves his initial subject matter. He can't stay away from it. His latest volume, Boss Cupid, details how we are ruled by desire. As Gunn says, he is interested in "desire as a bully." These poems, once again far from complacent, roamed from David and Bathsheba to Jeffrey Dahmer, with pit stops for attractive guys in the post office. The writing is taut, with constant attention to form. Every line is in place. In our exclusive interview, contributing editor Aviya Kushner talks with Gunn about love, desire, and a career record of being true to oneself -- no matter what society may say.
Barnes & Noble.com: Your most recent book, Boss Cupid, is all about desire. Why is desire so fascinating a subject for you, and why have you kept writing about it?
Thom Gunn: It's one of the principal human preoccupations -- and it certainly has been for me. At least, it has been for 60 years. One of the greatest influences on me have been the 18th- and 19th-century French novelists -- Laclos, Stendhal, Flaubert, and Proust. They've influenced me much more than the ancients. They explore the subject of love and its contradictions, and the idea that Cupid, the god of love, is a bully. He can make us profoundly uncomfortable.
B&N.com: What about your subject matter -- is it easier now to write about gay topics? Tell me a bit about how things have changed since you started writing.
TG: It has opened up a lot. Edmund White has a theory that once my generation and his were enabled to write freely about queer love, we were given an enormous amount of subject matter. It's very hard to imagine now the constrictions on writing about same-sex love in the 1950s, when I got started. You didn't write about same-sex love -- you wouldn't have been published. In 1944, for example, Robert Duncan, the San Francisco poet (who is memorialized in the poem "Duncan" in Boss Cupid) wrote an essay for a periodical called Politics about homosexuality. It wasn't that unusual in its content, but what was unusual was that Duncan said he was a homosexual. And a periodical run by John Crowe Ransom that had accepted Duncan's poems de-accepted them as a result. So things have changed enormously.
B&N.com: And yet Cupid is still boss. Where did the title come from?
TG: The title drew it together. I couldn't think what to call the book, and suddenly I realized that one of the references in the book would be a great title.
B&N.com: I'm interested in some of your previous work, too. In one of the poems in Positives, you write, "Youth is power." Well, what does a poet who wrote that do when he gets older?
TG: I'm not suggesting it as an absolute constant statement. Youth in this instance can be power, but I'm not offering it as a constant truth. For him, it is (the boy in the photograph). He's full of potential -- he's bathing in it. What is getting older? It's getting tired.
B&N.com: On the flip side, I'm curious about what you meant in an early poem about childhood, where you wrote "there is pleasure in reaching/a painful conclusion/with a tooth or with a thought." What is the pleasure, exactly?
TG: It can be painful when a new tooth comes through. It's a painful pleasure, and the mix of pleasure and pain is working something out.
B&N.com: You moved to California in 1954 and have stayed since. How has living in the United States affected your work?
TG: There's no controlled experiment to know what Thom Gunn would have been like had he stayed. Certainly the subject matter has been very much American, since my experience has been American.
B&N.com: In "Duncan," the opening poem in Boss Cupid, you write, "He learned you add to, you don't cancel what you do." Is that how you work?
TG: Duncan didn't believe in revision, he believed in adding. Once I showed him a poem, and then I showed him the same poem some weeks later, revised with a different ending. And he said if he were me he'd put in both endings. That line in the poem "Duncan" refers to the way he worked. He was a wonderful man. We were friends, and as a poet he had a very different following from me, but we were friends.
B&N.com: You've mentioned that you love Baudelaire. What is it about Baudelaire's work that you particularly admire?
TG: Proust pointed out that certain lines in Baudelaire could have been written by Racine. They were so classical in their balance, and the fact that he was able to balance the classical and the modern city -- that's magnificent. The fact that he was able to use the chaste style of Racine to describe the unchaste side of the city -- that's remarkable.
B&N.com: Okay, your wish is granted and you can pick your readers. Can you describe your ideal reader?
TG: My ideal reader would be rather like myself at the age of 21 or so. I don't expect special knowledge from him. I wouldn't expect my poetry to be the first thing the person picked up. I wouldn't need to give any direction.
B&N.com: But if you could offer advice to readers, what would it be?
TG: Read aloud. You should hear it. All poetry needs to be heard.
B&N.com: And what's next for you?
TG: I don't know. Death?! I mean, I'm 70. I'm having a good time being retired. You can get drunk in the middle of the day. I enjoyed teaching and I thought I'd miss it, but I don't miss it. There was always that sense of mild panic before giving a lecture, and any worthwhile teacher is going to worry. I do certainly miss the contact with young people, because they ask elementary questions. They keep you from becoming complacent.
Contributing editor Aviya Kushner is the poetry editor of Neworld Magazine and has served as poetry coordinator for AGNI Magazine. Her writing on poetry has appeared in The Harvard Review and The Boston Phoenix, and her essays on individual poems have been published in Poetry for Students, the college textbook on poetry. She has given readings of her own work throughout the United States and can be reached at AviyaK@aol.com.