Interviews
On Sunday, April 6th, barnesandnoble.com welcomed Vincent Bugliosi, the DA who prosecuted the Manson family and wrote the bestseller OUTRAGE: THE FIVE REASONS WHY O.J. SIMPSON GOT AWAY WITH MURDER.
Question: Do you think the current jury selection system affected the not-guilty verdict in the Simpson case?
Vincent T Bugliosi: The problem of jury selection was not so much jury selection but where the jury was chosen. The murders happened in Brentwood and the jury should have been chosen from there, not downtown Los Angeles. I said this in a December 1995 Playboy article. That was a serious error by the prosecution -- moving the trial from the predominantly white Santa Monica area to predominantly black Los Angeles.
Question: I couldn't find it in the book.... What did Simpson do to make sure the gloves wouldn't fit?
Vincent T Bugliosi: There is a photo in OUTRAGE of Simpson trying on the gloves, and you'll notice he's spreading the fingers. It's much more difficult to put gloves on when you are spreading your fingers. Darden said Simpson was "faking it." Of course, the prosecution never should have conducted that experiment without knowing if they would fit. It was the position of the prosecution that the gloves would fit if Simpson hadn't positioned his fingers so they wouldn't fit. This just goes to show the incompetence of the prosecution. You never turn over the evidence to the defendant like that. You should instead turn the evidence over to a third party to try the gloves on...someone with Simpson's hand size. Instead, what you had was Darden saying to Simpson, "Try these on and if they fit, you are in big trouble." That justgoes to show again the incompetence of the prosecution.
Question: I hate to delve up the past, but were you ever intimidated by Charles Manson or Susan Adkins?
Vincent T Bugliosi: Not really. Manson put me on his so-called death list; myself and my wife and kids had bodyguards. I certainly was aware that though Manson was behind bars, his reach extended beyond the jail cell. I knew he was dangerous, but I was never intimidated to the point that it affected my prosecution of him. I was never frightened by him.
Question: Mr. Bugliosi, why didn't you handle the O.J. case?
Vincent T Bugliosi: I am no longer with the DA's office. So it wouldn't have been normal. However, frequently before the case, there was talk that if therewas a hung jury in the first trial, Garcetti was going to appoint me to handle the second case. I don't think this would have happened since there are already 1,000 attorneys in the DA's office. That would have been bad for the morale of the DA's office. If I had been appointed, however, I can assure you that I would have worked 100 hours a week, and I can assure you that Simpson would not be a free man today.
Question: What are you currently working on?
Vincent T Bugliosi: I am trying to finish my book on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. There is a need for a book on the non-proconspiracy side. My view is that Oswald acted alone and that there was no conspiracy. I know that somewhere between 75 percent and 80 percent of the American people believe he was the victim of a conspiracy. But I want to tell you a story. I was speaking in Toronto on tactics and techniques used in the movie "JFK" just after the Oliver Stone movie was released. After the speech, there was a Q & A, and I asked for a show of hands of how many believed the assassination was a conspiracy. It was 80 percent to 90 percent of the audience. Then I said that I'd like to have a show of hands as to how many saw the movie "JFK"or at any time in the past had read a book rejecting the Warren Commission or believingin a conspiracy. Again, there was an enormous show of hands. I told them they should hear both sides of the story before making up their minds. With that thought in mind, I asked how many had read the Warren report. Hardly any raised their hands. Very few had heard both sides of the story. It was easier and more romantic to believe in the conspiracy. My book will show otherwise. Many of the conspiracy theories are appealing to the intellectual palate at first glance, but they do violence to all notions of common sense.
Question: With the passage of time, do you think the not-guilty verdict has had as negative an impact on race relations as you initially wrote in OUTRAGE?
Vincent T Bugliosi: Well, it's hard to speculate on that. Polls are showing now that more and more blacks are coming around to the view that Simpson did commit thesemurders. I think the civil judgment against him was helpful in narrowing the consensus against him. However, the majority of blacks still believe that Simpson was framed. When the murders first happened, most blacks didn't believe there was racism involved. Then, Johnnie Cochran injected race into the case and falsely accused innocent police officers of framing his client. Cochran knew there was no race in this case and that no frame-up took place. But he worked the black community into such a lather that they believed his nonsense. He exploited the black community to its long term detriment just to help his client...who is black in color only.
I haven't seen so much antiblack feeling in this country as I have since this verdict. I think this will cease over time, particularly as blacks begin to see that Simpson was guilty. Cochran has hurt the black community, but they don't see that yet. They look to him as a hero and glorify him. They haven't learned yet that he used them to their detrimentjust to help his client.
Question: What evidence would you have presented that they didn't?
Vincent T Bugliosi: Well, there's tremendous evidence that I would have offered. The suicide note reeked, I mean reeked, with guilt. The slow-speed chase: Found in Simpson's possession was a gun, changes of clothing, $8000 in cash that A.C. Cowlings said Simpson had given him just before they stopped. This all reeked of Simpson's guilt. I would have offered all of that. Anyone on the street and listening online tonight would have offered that. You don't have to be a lawyer to know to offer that evidence. Another ridiculous mistake by the prosecution. Daniel Petrocelli called me before the civil trial and told me he had read OUTRAGE several times and told me he was going to present the case in court the way I had laid it out in the book. Another piece of evidence that could have convicted Simpson aloneA day after the murders, Simpson was interrogated by the LAPD. He admitted dripping blood on his estate the night of the murders. He said he had no idea how he had been cut. Unbelievably, prosecutors never presented that either.
When I used the term incompetent to describe the prosecution, for the most part that is too flattering a term. Incompetence implies conduct within the normal range of human behavior. In many instances, these prosecutors went far beyond incompetence into the area of absurd and unheard of. The incompetence was so extreme that I actually get letters from people (and I get more for OUTRAGE than for HELTER SKELTER) who ask me, "Mr. Bugliosi, did the prosecution want to lose? Was there a payoff?" I tell them, "Of course not. That's unthinkable." The prosecutors are honorable, ethical people, but when you have a situation where there is a tremendous amount of incriminating evidence against the defendant and it's you're job to present it, and you don't, the natural question is, "How come? Was there a payoff?" Not only didn't they present a tremendous amount of evidence, but they virtually conceded the conspiracy issue by default in the final summation. Instead of devoting a minimum of two hours out of their eight-hour summation to knocking down the defense's case and showing how ridiculous the conspiracy argument against Simpson by the LAPD was, unbelievably, they only devoted one minute out of eight hours. Now, people have asked me, "How come?" I can't answer that question. I can tell you this...I have confirmed that these prosecutors were up until 4 30 in the morning on the day they gave their final summation, not going over it but preparing it for the first time. Like college students cramming for an exam.
Examples of how they sounded a couple of hours later in front of the jury The listeners, if they had to speak to the local Rotary club, would do enough preparation so they wouldn't sound this way. And, if they needed a document, they would have it with them on the lectern. When I read these excerpts, realize, of course, that two people have been brutally murdered. They are decomposing in their graves. The prosecutors have had almost an entire year to prepare theirarguments, and there are millions of people watching on television.
Marcia Clark: "Vannatter and Lange came out to Bundy and I guess they showed up around 4, 4:30, I guess it was."
"And that instruction was 2? 2.80? Do you have it on the bench, your Honor? Wait...I have it! Thank you."
Another example, again Marcia Clark: "There was some testimony, I think, from Dr. Baden ..." "At the end of the trial, or maybe it was the end of the whole trial ..."
"The testimony from Mr. McDonald, or maybe from Dr. Lee, but maybe from Mr. McDonald..."
Another example"First of all, ladies and gentlemen, reasonable doubt..."
The point is that they were never sure of themselves. They were never prepared. I give many other example in the book. There's only one word for this. It's inexcusable.
Incidentally, OUTRAGE is being read in law schools across the country. It is being read in several DA's offices. I just learned recently, it is the only book out of the over 60 in the Simpson case that has been nominated for the Edgar Allan Poe award for "Best True Crime Book" of the year. It's now out in paperback; however, when it first came out in hardcover in June 1996, it was the first book pointing out the incredible incompetence of the prosecution in this case. Prior to OUTRAGE, no one was talking about the poor prosecution. Everyone was blaming the predominantly black jury. Virtually everyone. Some blamed the LAPD, saying it botched the case before it ever came to trial. OUTRAGE has served to enlighten many people about what really happened during this trial. The Los Angeles Times said, "No one who reads this book will ever again say that the not guilty verdict in the Simpson case was solely the result of juror prejudice but the machinations [of] unscrupulous defense attorneys. In Outrage, the DA has been brought before the bar of justice." This was not a good jury, and I will stipulate to that. However, people tend to forget that as bad as the prosecution was in this case, the first vote by the jury in the jury room, a black juror and a white juror voted guilty on the first ballot. If you can get a 10-2 vote on the first ballot, with an F-presentation, you can imagine by extrapolation what would have happened if there had been an A+ performance by the prosecution. I am convinced there would have been a guilty verdict or at least a hung jury.