Interviews
On Wednesday, February 10th, barnesandnoble.com welcomed Caroline Alexander to discuss THE ENDURANCE.
Moderator: Welcome, Caroline Alexander! Congratulations on the success of your
New York Times bestseller THE ENDURANCE. Is this your first online chat?
Caroline Alexander: Yes, it is!
Greg from North Dakota: When did you first hear about Shackleton and the
Endurance? Did you know immediately that it would make a fascinating book topic?
Caroline Alexander: I am American-English and had heard his name from my British parents. Then someone gave me a book about him, and I fell into it and starting reading obsessively every book that I could get my hands on. But then, no, I didn't think of doing a book at this point. I wrote a whimsical book on the ship's cat, called MRS. CHIPPY'S LAST EXPEDITION. But in researching Mrs. Chippy, I discovered an extraordinary collection of photos and realized they'd never been comprehensively exhibited. I worked on an exhibition for the Natural History Museum, and once that was in place, they asked for a book to accompany the exhibit, and that is how the book came to be. Now it seems very obvious, but it didn't at the time.
Andrew from Allentown, PA: Despite its heroic outcome, doesn't the absurdity of Shackleton's venture strike you? What drove these men to attempt the impossible?
Caroline Alexander: I am not so sure it was impossible. Remember, Shackleton had already gotten within 100 miles of the South Pole in 1909 and turned back again. What he was now attempting on the Endurance attempt was not much longer. And in this expedition he was to be helped by the fact that a relief party would lay depots on the opposite side of the continent. He would have been able to pick up fresh supplies on the other side. The depot party succeeded, so he would have been in good shape if he had gotten that far. I think all pioneering ventures of this type are both absurd and heroic. One could say that about flying to the moon or swimming the channel.
Lee from Toluene, California: Were you able to visit the Ross Sea in Antarctica or South Georgia Island during research for your book?
Caroline Alexander: The Ross Sea won't apply much to this story, but that is where the depot-laying party would have been. I actually would have returned from South Georgia yesterday, in an ideal world; there was a three-week cruise I had been invited to join, but I couldn't because of this exhibit. I have taken a pretty solemn vow that I will go this season.
Marcia from Austin, TX: How did surviving such a harrowing, near-death experience change Shackleton and his men? Often you hear survivors become more religious, change values, et cetera. Do their diaries reflect this?
Caroline Alexander: That is a good question. A handful of the diaries -- one man in particular, Ord-Lees -- definitely had a religious transformation. He converted to Catholicism on his return to civilization. The others in their unorthodox way were spiritual men in their way already. They had little patience for organized religion, but if you will, their private faith helped them. But they didn't rush home and join a congregation. The most remarkable thing to me is that when I interviewed the sons and daughters of these men, across the board they said, "My father didn't like to talk about this," much like war veterans. And they seemed to put the experience behind them and get on with their lives for the most part. There were some men who never quite recovered.
V. C. Lyod from Grand Rapids: What were the commercial factors in Shackleton's proposition to cross Antarctica? In your estimation, did the competitive factors outweigh these?
Caroline Alexander: Commercial factors were most represented by the presence of Frank Hurley onboard the Endurance. He was the official and a professional photographer, and Shackleton took him along because he had sold moving film and photograph rights for the expedition. It was an exclusive deal. However, I don't think Shackleton expected to make a bundle from this. The rights that were sold financed the expedition itself. The money went back into the project. I think that Shackleton was fueled by a very outdated, romantic idea of exploration. I think he had an almost poetic vision of himself questing to the ends of the earth.
Bryne from Aurora, CO: What was the most startling thing you discovered while writing THE ENDURANCE?
Caroline Alexander: A small detail to some people, but devastating to me: the discovery that the carpenter, Chippy McNish, had died destitute and broken on the docks in New Zealand. This was the man whose work had made the journey of the James Caird, their boat, possible. Shackleton denied McNish the polar medal when they returned to civilization. I think it is perhaps the only vindictive act Shackleton committed, and I can't forgive him for it.
Dennis Ginnard from Clinton Township, MI: Please compare the magnitude of the expedition and the hardships with those endured by those ascending Mount Everest and who die at a rate of 1 in 4.
Caroline Alexander: That is a loaded question! I think when you boil down the Everest tragedy, it comes down to one bad night on the mountain and the majority of the party fell apart. Shackleton's men endured at least nine months on the ice after their ship was crushed. But more to the point, with all respect to the sometimes quite valiant leaders on Everest, I think "Shackletonian" leadership would have saved all lives. We know from his own history that he had the courage to turn back from his goal, when he turned back 100 miles from the South Pole in 1909. I think if he had been leading the people up Everest, at the appointed turnaround hour, they would have turned back, period.
Suellen Miller from Chicago: Will Shackleton's Bible be one of the artifacts at the American Museum of Natural History show?
Caroline Alexander: Yes, and you can even see where the pages were torn from the book of Job.
Mannie from Pittsford, New York: Do you know if Shackleton and his crew hold the record for longest group survival with no deaths?
Caroline Alexander: Good question! I know of nothing comparable. That is to say, I know of remarkable survival stories, but they usually involve someone's loss of life along the way. So far, in the time I have been talking to and meeting people about this expedition, no one has brought to my attention anything that surpassed this.
David Bock from New York City, NY: Since the expedition had to ditch much of their equipment to make the boat journey, I imagine not all the film and photographic plates could be saved. How much of this material was lost?
Caroline Alexander: Hurley saved about a hundred glass-plate negatives. Over 400 were destroyed and left. But to my knowledge, the moving film he took survived intact. This film can be seen in two venues: Within the Museum of Natural History exhibition itself, we show excerpts on a screen to illustrate parts of the drama; and also the museum plans to show in its theater many public screenings of Hurley's film, which is now called "South."
Suellen Miller from Chicago: Why do you think there's such interest in Antarctic exploration? There's your book, all the reprints of Shackleton books, the Alfred Lansing book ENDURANCE, and the new study of Scott's Terra Nova trip?
Caroline Alexander: I think that there are two reasons: One, shrewd marketing -- when one book of the era does well, others are brought out to help make an event, if you will. But as to why the heroic age now, I think in great part it is a nostalgia for what we perceive as better generations. I think it has a lot to do with why Tom Brokaw's book THE GREATEST GENERATION or Peter Jennings's THE CENTURY [are so popular]. I think as we are on the eve of leaving the century we have all grown up in that there is a real wistful nostalgia for the age we are leaving behind, and Shackleton's story exemplifies many of these old-fashioned virtues that we know we have lost.
Mark from University of Pittsburgh: What other good books are there on Shackleton and the high-sea adventure? Which did you rely on the most? Can't wait to look at your book, Caroline. It sounds fascinating.
Caroline Alexander: Thank you, first of all! I would recommend Shackleton's own memoir, SOUTH, and Frank Worsley's ENDURANCE: AN EPIC OF POLAR ADVENTURE (Worsley was captain of the Endurance). And I highly recommend Roland Huntford's THE LAST PLACE ON EARTH. It was published in the 1970s. It is actually about Scott and Amundsen, but Shackleton figures in it largely. For my own research, I drew on unpublished sources, mostly, namely the diaries of the expedition members themselves. Alas, these aren't published.
Cordellia from Nicollsville, Kentucky: What is it about man-versus-nature stories that so appeal to human interest?
Caroline Alexander: I guess when the chips are down, it is the elemental struggle that somehow is the most inescapable or most daunting. I also think they are in some sense "pure" stories in a way that is not true in man's struggle against man. If we read stories of how concentration-camp survivors survived their ordeal, we are uplifted by their heroism, but the story is still a dirty one. These ethics of man against nature allow us to look at the best in man -- or worst, as the case may be -- with no degrading aspect to the heroism that ensues.
Brady from Fairfax, VA: It amazes me that all the crew survived! With such extreme cold, how did they not get hypothermia? What was the average temperature?
Caroline Alexander: I don't have an average temperature for the whole ordeal, but I do have month-by-month averages that are pretty interesting. The average temperature for their winter was minus 8.6 degrees in June, with the lowest temperature being minus 30 degrees. The highest average temperature for any one month was in the height of the southern summer, December, where the average temperature was 26 degrees Fahrenheit. Hypothermia? The more one knows about the story, the more you can't figure this out. Moreover, people with a lot more experience than I have in extreme environments are baffled and amazed and cannot explain it. Remember, too, that on at least two occasions the men were not just exposed to low temperatures but also to freezing water, which is much worse. In the two boat journeys they undertook, there was no waterproof clothing.
Tom from California: Do you find it somewhat ironic that big business is using Shackleton as a role model in the corporate world?
Caroline Alexander: Highly ironic! I keep hearing of this phenomenon, but I haven't yet witnessed it. Which is to say that people tell me he is being used as a role model in business, but I have yet to meet anyone who shows me how this is being done! I think a good case can be made for Shackleton's methods of human management being studied. His psychological gift of best handling his men was one of the strengths of his leadership.
Ronald from Newton, MA: Have you read the Andrea Barrett novel THE VOYAGE OF THE NARWHAL? I'm curious to get your thoughts on her novel.
Caroline Alexander: I haven't read a single novel in the past 14 months, but hers is high on my list. When the exhibition is over and I am free to read what I like again, I will be undoubtedly reading her book.
R. Lyons from Connecticut: Do you have a favorite photo of Hurley's in your book?
Caroline Alexander: Yes, and a quirky one. It is the photo that appears on the dedication page to Mrs. Chippy. It is a strangely haunting photograph to me. When I look at it, I know it is an old photo, and without knowing its context, I would have known it was taken onboard a ship. It is the photograph that first put me on the Shackleton trail, leading me to research the heroic life of Mrs. Chippy. (Mrs. Chippy was the ship's cat. Alas, she did not survive, but she did survive onboard the ten months they were trapped on the ice!)
Marissa from Seattle: Does Elephant Island -- where the crew launched -- still exist and go by the same name?
Caroline Alexander: Absolutely! I am working with Nova Productions on a documentary film about the Endurance expedition, and my partner just returned from Elephant Island. The documentary will be a two-hour feature documentary using location shooting on places like Elephant Island and South Georgia, as well as the very rich collection of contemporary photographs. It will be released in January of 2000. For people who really want to see Shackleton's environment up close, the same team is making an IMAX film to be released in autumn of 2000.
Paul from Morris Plains, NJ: Dear Caroline, I absolutely loved the pictures in this book. Can you tell me a little bit how you got all the pictures and what type of research you had to do for this book?
Caroline Alexander: The research for the photographs was very straightforward. All the images were in the possession of three institutions. They were not found in someone's attic or someone's bed; they had been there all the time, and for whatever reason no one had thought or bothered to showcase them. The research for the text was a different story and was conducted over two and a half years. Some firsthand source materials were in archives, some in record offices, and some in the possession of the families of the expedition members. Tracking these down often took a lot of sleuth work, but it was riveting work and, from my point of view, the best part of making this book.
Janene from Chicago: Are you available at any time during the exhibit?
Caroline Alexander: I will be giving a lecture on April 9th at the Museum of Natural History. This is the day before the exhibit opens to the general public.
Moderator: Thank you, Caroline Alexander! Best of luck with THE ENDURANCE. Do you have any closing comments for the online audience?
Caroline Alexander: I think that this is, I can say in all humility, a great story, and I hope you read it in my book, but if you read it in any book, you will be the better for it.